Sleep routines and destructive behaviour

You are amazing grandparents! I vote for the one grandparent sleeps in the child’s room and alternates every night. At least you will be getting a good nights sleep every other day. The grandparent who got to sleep undisturbed gets to do the morning breakfast/school run, leaving the tired grandparent to have a lie in. Childproof the room as much as possible, if possible put most of the toys out of reach and only have a few out...teach them that the toy boxes come down/out at a certain time and set an alarm clock for when this happens. Just leave out a few sturdy books and soft toys for quiet play if they get up too early. You could also try cutting out any afternoon naps they might have and instead introduce reading time or TV time. If they no longer have naps then you could try putting them to bed a bit later (although I know you’re probably watching that clock trying to hang on in your exhaustion until bedtime as it is!). You can also try those projector night lights that project rotating images on the ceilings and play music that they sell for babies..they work for older kids (and even adults) too!

Please don't slate made in Yorkshire I can empathise and sometimes you can be at your wits end when faced with screaming kids all day long I am safety conscious and aware of children's safety in event of a fire just so people know I went overboard and have a smoke alarm in every room and two emergency exits upstairs but rightly or wrongly people are voicing what works for them I love you all for the help but remember hopefully we are all here to help each other sermon over

I always try to remember that little children have no other way of communicating their distress than by being disruptive, they don't have either the vocabulary or the psychology to voice concerns.

In addition, the 4 year old is coping with the trauma of school - that alone is a big thing. And you may have heard of 'The Terrible Twos' when children around that age just seem to go off the rails for a while - fortunately it doesn't last.

You are doing a magnificent job Paul and wife and to heck with what the 'health professionals' think - do whatever it takes to give you all a restful night.

sorry to read about your daughter madeinyorkshire. If it's any consolation, my. mother tied my bedroom door in exactly the way you describe. I was 7 or 8 and it seems, kept going downstairs to say it was too early to go to bed because it wasn't dark. Mum was pregnant, I shared the bedroom with my four year old sister so I was disrupting her sleep as well. Dad was often working nights, or away on courses during that period. Mum must have been so tired and isolated, we'd moved to a small village where she knew no one. One night, I pulled so hard at the door the cord holding it broke and I damaged my toe nail when the door ran over it. Mum cried, I cried we all cried. She never tied the door again and I do hope I didn't continue to pester....

I do hope your daughter gets help, it's a dreadful situation for both of you.

Oh dear Madeinyork what a horrible situation for you I can only say I hope you get the help your daughter needs as soon as possible that’s a horrible situation for you to deal with alone

Oh madeinyorkshire....please no. It might have been ok for you, although perhaps you could ask her at some time if she has any memories of it. My siblings and I grew up in a very dysfunctional family where our father laid down laws about bed time...basically we were up in our beds until 'released'. No actual locks but a huge fear of leaving the room. I have so many memories of sobbing myself to sleep when unwell (I had severe tonsillitis regularly until the were removed aged 8).
I think there are a few tips...never make going to bed a punishment. The bedroom is only about sleeping and being comfortable. Allow quirks such as door ajar or nightlights etc. I have GC who have opposite requests, one has door open t'other not and woe betide you if you get in wrong. They need to learn to resettle themselves, so if they wake they should just be gently put back with little interaction. As they get a little older they can help choose a colour for a quilt, which cuddly toy etc etc. Also a really ridged bedtime regime - same every night so it becomes a reassuring habit. Story telling is so important and can be a good time to have reassuring chats about things that bother them as they get older.

It's a difficult time for you madeinYorkshire we all do the best we can at the time so don't blame yourself for your daughter's subsequent problems. As you say things were very different then. Don't be too hard on yourself. I hope your daughter gets the help and support she needs.

My house was full of smoke alarms so that would not have been an issue and I could quick release it anyway! Different times, as I said it was in a book that was very popular in those days. It did work and at that point I was bloody desperate, 350 miles away from home on my own trying to cope ..... and probably with PND thinking back although wouldn't have admitted that at the time.

Maybe that is why she is now trying to commit suicide - 9 times now, as she is so bloody unhappy - coping with that on my own too as getting help is virtually impossible.

Yes you will get jumped on madeinyorkshire I think that is a hideous idea not only completely harsh but the thoughts of safety issues if there was a fire the child couldn’t escape
Can you imagine the images and thoughts in a small frightened child s head who found the door locked (albeit with a couple of inches open) that is so cruel if I was that child I d scream all night
Paul please don’t consider anything like that they need love, care tenderness and security keep them in your bed until they want to go in their own it will get less and less as they grow but do it in their time please

I am in the process of trying to convince my DGS that I cannot and will not get up at 5am. I find I need an early night when he stays, put him to bed exhausted at 7.30pm and go to bed myself about 8.30pm. He has been known to sleep until 7 am but often wakes in the night and comes into my bed. He was awake at 5am the other morning and I cuddled him talked quietly and sang and he did settle until 6.20am. I was so grateful for the extra hour.Paul you have my admiration and sympathy I don't think I could manage to do every day (or should that be every night).Do you have anyone who would take them for one night so that you could have a break?

I will probably get jumped on to, but when my eldest was able to get out of her she was a nightmare - she also had colic until she was 17 months old. I was living in Scotland and my husband stayed in London all week, so I was absolutely shattered and also pregnant again! Thin we had a book called Toddler Taming which advocated the tying up of the door handle so that she could open it a few inches and see out, but not get out ... it took about a fortnight of being consistent but she did get the message and I got some sleep, eventually! You could try that and also make their room a bit more toddler proof?

Glad to hear things might be on the up! Tiredness can make everything else 10 times more difficult.

Little ones need 'dog training' !
Lots of attention when doing the right thing and hardly any when they do the wrong thing. When your little ones are throwing/ breaking things try hard not to respond. Difficult I know! But when they are playing or using something well you need to give them a hug or smile and say how good they are. Give over the top praise to turn the tide!

Children crave attention.. any attention and your DGD may have learned that up to now they only get it with bad behaviour. You need to show that they get attention for just being them & doing nothing and also by doing good things. hope that makes sense. Good luck!

Great ! Most of the families I know with children under five are lucky to get 5 hours unbroken sleep. I don't know any who haven't fallen by the wayside in their determination to keep children in their own beds - co sleeping is the norm.

Thank you all once again I actually managed 5 hours sleep last night tidied up the bedroom and got the 4 year old to school with a minute to spare

Paul, I’ve just caught up with this and I’m so,pleased to see your response to the advice to just get on with it, let the little ones climb into your bed if they need to. I’m not Adan of the super nanny approach and I don’t see How letting asmall child. Ry herself to sleep, calling this “self soothing” is anything other than cold and unkind
There is an army of grandparents in our country, stepping in to care for grandchildren and supporting their adult children - thankyoun

Thank you all for the advice and tips we have tried the putting back to bed but they just get up again hence our lack of sleep we are doing the Co sleeping though it is frowned upon by health professionals it works in part they sleep for 4 hours roughly then all hell hits about 6am and youngest just scatters whatever she can find lol we do what we do because the fathers took off after the births seems to be common nowadays but maybe I'm biased but thank you everyone makes the job easier now to try and grab some sleep!

I just thought it might be good to look at past times. I shared a bedroom with my brother from birth to age 7. When my aunt who was a teenager stayed she slept in the same room in the bed with my brother. When I stayed at my GM's I shared her bed. My mother's uncles and aunts slept in 2 double beds in a girl's room and a boy's room. They only got their own bed when they left home. I think we sometimes forget how recent children sleeping alone is.

I've actually enjoyed reading this post. Two little ones who needed help, grandparents who have stepped up and supportive replies to the posters request for help.
No one can function without sufficient sleep, especially as we get older. So, do whatever you need to do to get through it. I wouldn't hesitate to co-sleep. It won't last forever and you will be able to face whatever the day throws at you if you've had a night's sleep.
Pat on the back to you both, I think you're probably doing an amazing job

My kids slept in our bed off and on for years. They would pop through announce they had had a bad dream and jump in. I can't function without sleep so it was the best option. A friend with 3 children close together had a double bed and a single pushed together, when all 3 waned to be in the bed someone would roll over into the single.
Just do whatever you find best. I can't stand to hear children crying so I never could do the leave a child to cry method.

I hate Supernanny , poor browbeaten children

Oh I back the idea that the girls sleep in a big bed with a grown up and one grown up goes to a child's bed. Worked for us when ours were tots! At least we slept! They were not still sleeping in our beds all night when they got to school age!

Have a look on Supernanny on You tube. Basically she seems to say after putting them them bed, usual routine etc. If they get up you put them back to bed. Again. And Again. Doesn't matter how long it takes you have to be persistent, don't engage in discussion, or give them milk etc. after the normal routine. It seems to work for her.

I m so happy I thought you were all going to jump on me

Please do comfort these poor little lives hold them tight till they sleep they are little for such a short period of time and you ll all have a good night

Poor babies.
Poor you two.
Poor daughter with depression.

Already some sound advice on here and more to follow I bet.
You are both doing such an amazing thing for your family and I wish you all the best going forward.

Separation anxiety is the reason for the children's behaviour.
In a way it's normal but when it shows itself as a real disorder the only route is professional help.
It's very distressing for both the children and also care-givers as it affects the whole family.
Perhaps your next port of call would be the GP to explain these problems, plus the effect it's having on your own health and hopefully you'll be guided from there.