Horrible grandchildren....HEL P

I guess it could go either way-

I didn't much like gatherings that revolved around adults when I was a kid! The fact that it was family didn't make much of a difference, I was little and they were big-

Otherwise they simply might be better behaved without mom around because they're frightened

If they were frightened of her it would be the other way round.

The problem with adult gatherings is that they're adult centered- And when children attend gatherings intended for adults, naturally they act up-

The above isn't a description of a "family" get together-

If the children aren't bouncing off walls during quality time with grandparents, that could be a good sign if enjoying each other's company- Otherwise they simply might be better behaved without mom around because they're frightened-

It does sound like the mom is pre-occupied, to put it mildly- To put a finer point on it, neglectful-

Adult gatherings + preoccupied mom = kiddie chaos-

Personally, I'd rather see children responding to lack of attention by bouncing off walls than internalizing quietly in front of screens-

Muddigran Maybe it is time to offend her, stop walking on eggshells and tell her the truth. Your Daughter brought these children into the world so she needs to parent them, her social life should take last place. If she is struggling, help her but only if she is willing to help herself. Help your Grandchildren by taking them out or having them overnight without their Mother, Praise them for their good behaviour and tell them how wonderful they are to be around when they are behaving

As far as birthday parties for friends are concerned, you know what to expect. IMO, either you should make your excuses or just accept the situation as it is.

Granted, Ive often seen kids get overexcited about their bday or even a sibling's bday. And some of those "shocked" (my word) parents may not realize/admit that their own kids do the same thing when it's their turn. But if you're really uncomfortable/if you really feel DD doesn't handle things correctly at these parties, IMO, you should skip them. Chances are, you can celebrate w/ the bday girl when you and DH have your GDs on your own.

" I truly think it’s her attention they are seeking..."

I agree. What isn't clear, however, is if this happens when they are just w/ DD alone. Maybe in company she thinks she can relax and focus on herself a bit? Perhaps she's counting on you and her siblings to give the children attention when she's w/ all of you? Not saying she's right, just that this may be her viewpoint. As notanan suggests, since the girls know how to behave, she must be teaching them when they're alone.

She's your DD, if you're not sure how to talk to her about this, I take it you know she's sensitive and might resent it or just brush it off as she does w/ her friends. She would probably resent your trying to discipline her kids, as well. But she might be ok w/ and actually appreciate your bringing things for the kids to entertain themselves with, as a couple of posters have suggested (coloring books, etc.). Really, IMO, DD should do this, but since she doesn't, maybe you could.

I also agree that some children have difficulty handling it when adults are only engaging w/ each other and not them. So it may be that they're not just looking for DD's attention, but that of the adults, in general (DD, your other AC, yourself, etc.). Perhaps you all need to focus on the GC and leave the adult conversation for a time when the kids aren't around?

If you don't feel any of this will work out, then it may be best to stop having these family get togethers until your GDs are older. Or maybe if your other AC have kids at some point, they'll become more sympathetic to their sister. But for now, it seems to me, these gatherings just aren't working.

DD is so caught up in her own social life that she doesn’t see how wild they are. I truly think it’s her attention they are seeking

Absolutely right, this is typical of children who feel neglected and unimportant.
I'm sure too that your daughter knows exactly what they are like but lacks the motivation to change anything, so ignores it all.

She needs to go to parenting classes, do you think she will?.

She needs to spend more time with her daughters and help them feel safe by making them a prioty and giving them guidelines she must stick to but as long as they are acting up, she won't do this. Something of a vicious circle but in the end it's the parent who must act to change things, not the children.

You might try explaining to the girls the difficulties their Mummy faces, the reasons why she's not there for them as they need her to be. If she's working she may be tired and crave a bit of leisure, rest or male company. After all, she wants to feel neded as well.

They need to understand she has many problems and they can help her if they want to. The fact that you love them and are willing to spend time with them is a lifeline for them.

Don't judge, these are not 'horrible children' they are lost, desperately lonely, unable to articulate how much pain they are in because they don't have an adult vocabulary.

Have patience and perhaps find someone your daughter trusts and likes who can support her.

It sounds like you should have the children over and not your daughter if they are not so bad when she's not there, and never agree to go to a restaurant with them! I'm sorry but I would have said this behaviour was unacceptable when they were little, why let it escalate for years. I don't understand why people on here make excuses for badly behaved children, no matter whose fault it may be. You are just setting up your life for awful teenagers if young children can't be controlled. And, yes, my own grandchildren try it on all the time but they understand there are boundaries and consequences, which do not change!

I havensomething for mine to do next weekend when they come. It didn't cost much and it could make a mess(!) but I hope will keep them occupied until bedtime and stories.

I justvwonder if mother and grandmother want an adult chat? The children react because they want attention.

Muddigran On a totally practical level ...Just wondering if when you all go out do you take some things to distract the children ...a couple of new books/puzzle books or similar "quiet" toys/activities depending on their interests. If their attention is caught they might settle a bit better

A mixture of advice here on this thread. Maybe take from it what resonates for you and your family situation

pinkquartz there is nothing stopping a grandmother providing activities for them or sending them out into the garden when mother is there too.

OP asks for advice on how to talk to her DD about this.
In return she is being pulled apart and criticized.

OP can you have time with her in a one to one? or with one of her siblings.
I can only think that honest discussion and offers to help her are best.
Don't attack her but give her "feedback" that her family are concerned that the two girls are behaving badly and that no-one knows what is the best thing to do.
Maybe your DD will be relieved to have the issue talked about.
If she is upset tell her you only want to help because otherwise people won't want to be around them.
When my DD was a child I had a friend who had a very badly behaved son and no-one wanted to say anything and we all avoided him.

Do you never correct the children when she is there?
What happens if you do?
If it was a family gathering and they were misbehaving,
and you told them firmly to stop, and made sure they did,
how would she react?
You can't go on like this.

I thought the OP had made it clear it is not when they are with her alone but when mum oi present but ignoring them,

It's not really the weather to push them outside into the garden but perhaps they'll be better when they can let off steam outside?

I'm not sure what noisy and unruly means though.

My DGC are constantly active at the moment, never stop for a moment, but they have been through phases when they have quietly done puzzles, played with toys written plays and stories.
I usually try to find them some new activity if they are coming for any length of time, eg baking, playdough, etc.

I was also going to bring up thst a lot of women had to manage as single mothers during and after the war.
My DD is certainly not wild.
Horribly judgemental comment Fennel
As you say you were wild can we have details?
might be good to read

I agree with the comments that the 2DGC are acting out as they want more attention from mum.
In which case what can anyone else do other than talk to her in a direct manner.

Sometimes honesty is the best medicine.

Muddigran.
You must be feeling wretched by now.
You chose an attention grabbing headline, I’m sure you meant that the behaviour was horrible not the children themselves!

You have been judged and pulled to pieces.
I am sorry. You sound like a caring mother and grandmother who just wants to help.

I suggest posters read muddigrans posts and take a few minutes before responding.

If I was Muddigran I would have hit the gin and left gransnet by now.

I'm with Missfoodlove here.

Children are like flowers - They blossom with care and attention. The opposite without it.

Fennel I brought up 3 boys on my own. None of them were wild except when it was acceptable. They all knew how to behave. It takes time and effort but it can be done.
It sounds to me as if these children actually want more attention from their mum. Could you perhaps ask her to spend the first 10-15 mins of any social occasion playing with them? Take a game, books, crayons that they can do together. You may find once they have some attention they calm down.

When I was growing up it was remarkable and rare for dads to actively "parent"

Two parents intensively parenting a child together is a very very new idea.
I do not buy the harping back to ANY time when that was any sort of norm

I dont remember this magical time of double parenting. I remember dads getting home after bedtime and kids being told not to bother them..