Hello folks,
Does anyone has insight/experience of what to expect/outcome, etc of an NHS Dietician referral for a two-and-a-half year-old?
I’m concerned if a referral for GS might boil down to, little more than a leaflet for parents?
GS is a Vegan, ongoing breastfed baby-thru-toddler... who's been 'low on Vit B12 and iron' in blood tests in blood tests, is tiny, and very underweight - not only does another 9-month-old GC weigh much more, but I sat GS on my lap and I can feel all the vertebrae in his spine sticking out!
His parents - I'm sorry to say about my own DS and partner – seem stauncher about their Vegan beliefs than their little one's nutrition; I ask about his 'protein' intake, and get a diatribe about the evils of the global meat industry destroying the planet. That wasn't the question.
I would never nag, but knowing they were trying and getting nowhere trying to feed him lentils etc, tried a suggestion that “just right now, while GS palate and taste-buds are still evolving”, for the sake of vital nutrition, his health, and development, just try anything, even if not Vegan e.g., a simple teaspoon of egg yolk, occasionally! Just to get some iron and B12 into him, instead battling [and getting stressed with failing] to get supplements and pulses into him? Once you’re past this stage, and get things balanced out, then introduce the Vegan diet back in?”
This, literally a simple two sentence suggestion of a teaspoon of egg yolk… [maybe occasionally?] provoked a horrifyingly aggressive reaction from DS and no contact for weeks.
BTW – there’s no other grandparents involved here: DS’s GF is an orphan. And I really sympathise with this and – with all due respect to DS’s GF – it’s probably hard to take on another ‘mother’ without resentment, even just emotional resentment. But that’s not the issue here: the issue is an undernourished and malnourished nearly-three-old, they are apparently concerned about, and at a loss to know what to do with.
And, I’m shocked that under the circumstances, I don’t observe a stronger nurturing instinct kicking in towards the GS – I’ve had GF shrieking on the phone at 1am, threatening to commit suicide – with the baby in the house – because they’ve had a row and “no one cares about her”; and so self-obsessed that she kept posting ‘boastful’ type pics on social media, each time GS fell over and ended up with big bruises on his face - then wondering why someone [no idea who] contacted social services. Seriously.
I have a background in nutrition, qualifications, and worked alongside global child nutrition experts ... More recently, I worked as a Dementia care manager, and one person who was ‘starving themselves’ i.e., not eating, I was delighted to find, after six months, I’d raised their cognitive function results by 50% simply by adjusting their nutritional intake. Dementia starves the brain, and nutrition for dementia sufferers is as vital as that for a little one.
I'm not trying to say to the DS/GF that I know better, or more - just, trying to be supportive while GS lack of growth and development is sliding into an extreme situation. They don’t seem to notice anymore…
GS came over, at lunch, wan, speechless, staring into space, not interacting – I managed to get a Weetabix and half into him – and suddenly he was like a different child. Giggling, babbling, colour in his cheeks. His blood sugar levels must have been at zero! And DS was oblivious, “Oh, but we’ll be eating later”.
But, both DS/GF noticed and been surprised that GS will sit and eat at least something at Grandma’s house: well, for one thing, at Grandma’s house there’s easy rules, like not wandering about in front of a 48” TV screen, while picking up food, playing with it, or throwing it at the dog.
However, GS has no serious interest in consuming anything except breast milk, OR packets of various highly processed 'snacks' [crisps, fruit bars, muesli bar] fed to him if the packets have a 'V' [vegan] label on it.. GS points at food and ingredients, gets interested in seeing it cooked, but eating it? No way.
I try to say, about training GS food tastebuds, and DS argues back that the long list of highly processed artificial ‘ingredients’ in a packet of salty crisps are ‘ingredients’ exactly as ‘milk’ is an ‘ingredient in ‘cheese’.
Then, DS’s GF is not especially bright [my firmly schtum-kept observation], and is very domineering... with a tactic of talking relentlessly over and deflecting any simple conversation, with she can "look it all up on the internet". And, makes astounding comparisons such as, feeding a teaspoon of egg yolk to GS would be as revolting as… DS consuming one of her own eggs!
And in answer to my mild observation that - cultural norms - around the world, throughout history, all humans, and primates, evolved, eating some level of animal protein, even if only occasional scavenged bird eggs [viz cavemen hunter-gatherers and chimpanzees] ... Apparently, "Yes, but we know better these days …and … in some societies it’s probably culturally normal to rape children..." OMG. Yes, that was the – jaw dropping – response to shut up Grandma.
Please don’t anyone think I nag these parents!! Seriously, I don’t. I have very tentatively tried to get to some bottom line, about what is their priority: their beliefs or their child’s wellbeing?
I lived in sub-Saharan Africa for almost a decade – surrounded by kids impacted by under-nutrition, and malnutrition, who, in the words of health experts I worked with, will, sadly, “Never reach their full potential because of lack of protein.” And here we are, in UK, with a GC staring into space, or at the TV, while his parents are staring at their flipping phones, telling me, “He can eat meat when he’s old enough to buy it for himself…” and offering him days-old, cold, pasta, and shrugging off his food refusal – like somehow in decades to come he’ll be a fully cognitive, developed adult regardless of lack of nutrition. Not acknowledging he’s NOT an adult like them, able to make nutritional decisions for himself.
The irony is my DS used to complain as a kid because I hardly ever served up meat; we also know plenty of other families who’ve reared strapping six feet children on a vegetarian diet. However, those parents actually some good idea about child nutritional requirements.
My DS seems to have lost all backbone to stand up as a father or in the relationship [GF is an appalling spendthrift getting them into £1,000s of debt] - and he seems to have retreated into Vegan moral high ground, to have any sense of control in the relationship... even GF admits this.
He’s also lazy. Sorry, he’s my DS and I can say that about him, so he’ll try a couple of bits of toast with GS and then, toxic-snacks aside, let GS wait all day, til GF comes home after work, before any ‘meal’ is prepped. And then's surprised/depressed that GS is too far past it, to want to eat, anything apart from breast-milk.
But, while all the relationship issues are 'theirs' to deal with as a couple - at the heart of this is a little GS, who's turning into a stunted little dwarf, and whose learning and development is regressing... with his spinal vertebrae sticking out etc.
I couldn't seem to have a simple conversation to draw out their concerns, without either triggering the 'meat industry' angry response, or the astounding comparisons of 'raping children' ... So, I've changed tack, keep my mouth shut and instead cook and serve up delicious homemade vegan meals for when GS comes over. Even if GS doesn't eat them 
then DS can learn some recipe ideas to take home.
I was a Nutritional Counsellor, and Chef, and can ram every vitamin, mineral, amino acid, you name it, into a simple dish. Sad;y, these 'hidden' nutrients also seem to escape GS parents’ [just blend up veggies etc into a pasta sauce... ffs]. Apologies for swearing. But, no - they also seem to be lazy parents. I go and babysit and what's in the fridge to offer GS?
... nearly one week-old cooked, cheapest, plain white pasta. Nothing else aside from a soya yoghurt. Not even fortified Vegan 'growing up milk' which I kept buying for GS [because they have no money, or care that it might be a stepping-stone [from breast milk] towards a wider dietary intake] - they just left it in their fridge until it was way past the use by date).
The fridge and cupboards are joyless and/or empty – it seems there’s an acceptance that GS won’t eat – he refuses almost everything – so they’ve given up trying to feed him.
But, GS will go out – of the house – and happily eat vegan chocolate cake and 'vegan milk-shakes' when his Mum goes off for regular, so-called 'self-care', trips to cafes [all documented on social media, together with close-up images of her nipples expressing milk, for 450 ‘friends’ to see].
I think GS would be even more underweight if it weren't for consuming those 'empty calories' of sugar and fat?
I’m concerned what an NHS Dietician will come up with for a little one just not interested in eating a thing – apart from sugary cake, and breast milk.
Yes, his parents are concerned - hence the dietician referral - but that’s offset by a GF’s shrugged, "Well, I was picky as a baby, I turned out alright", laissez-faire expectation of whatever happens at the referral. As though, whatever advice they’re given they expect to ignore, because “I can look it all up on the internet anyway, and they [the professional experts] don’t understand and are just prejudiced about Veganism and breast-fed children”.
Worrying about my little GS welfare keeps me awake at night.
eazybee - yes, it's all true and I've tried hard to keep it factual, rather than emotional...
At Nursery GS now actually eats - apparently. The parent response to that is - see, he needs to be around other kids to learn about eating, and we can't afford to send him every day... the DS is partly depressed because he's job hunting, to go back to work and stick GS into nursery full time.
I'm concerned that even if GS was at nursery FT then a nursery-supplied Vegan diet may still be inadequate, because with all fair respect to a nursery, it's not their role to provide a complete 100% adequate diet that the parents should be already giving GS.
Yes, GS may eat better at Nursery but a diet of carrot sticks [what he basically gets there, apparently] shouldn't mean his parents can shirk responsibility for his nutrition.
So worried ... I never expected anything like this as a Gran. Supporting my other DS and other GS with Leukemia is one awful thing you support your family through, but this - to have to think to batter down the doors at social services about what your own GS isn't being fed, is ... words fail me at the moment.
Hithere - yes, I've stopped going anywhere questioning a vegan lifestyle choice... truth was I never did; given the passion of their convictions, I presumed this would naturally follow through with a passion for the intense planning, as Shelflife says, for their baby's nutrition ... but, their enthusiasm (?) at the weaning stage just tailed off.
GF got locked into GS needs "only breast milk for at least a year"... then, well, if he wasn't eating then ... well, breast milk is complete and natural baby human food for children, and so on, every stage afterwards, when he wasn't eating - then I discovered GS also wasn't eating in the daytime, because he was hooked on GF's 'milk bar' all night - she was complaining he'd hit and punch her boobs [sleeping in the bed with them] until she gave him milk.
I explained - for everyone's sake, and a decent night's sleep for GS parents, if only to be fit to go out to work the next morning, and earn the rent money for the roof over all their heads - there has to be 'rules': no all-night 'milk bar'. Of course GS won't eat in the day, if he's topping up all night!
Freedomfromthepast - lots of great ideas 
- those are are along my philosophy for kids enjoying food, and we all eat with our eyes - it has to look appetising. We get the Barilla brand here too. And, I use Chia seeds / chick peas etc for cooking for myself.
I've done the smoothies with frozen fruit - GS liked the look of the idea, but unfortunately he was rapidly disinterested - he's a kid who seems to get 'ice cream' brain quickly. I will try the frozen fruit again with 'room temperature' smoothies.
I think - see - part of the problem is getting DS and GF to take more interest in food/nutrition/cooking for themselves, so that all the yummy nutritional things they could be eating as a family, isn't just focused on trying to get GS to eat.
FFTP - yes, I'd say DS is also hungry, lacking nutrients, and essential minerals, and it's affecting his mental health... [he's started on anti-depressants] and therein lies the rub (?) - as soon as I start laying in a stock of great healthy ingredients, have a chat and reassure DS I'm on his/their side about the eating [come here, we'll all cook and eat together, take the stress off that whole scenario] then GF gets twitchy [highly insecure] that DS is 'taking decisions by himself". In other words, without her.
I can see she's highly anxious about DS getting too independent - AND, I think keeping GS on with the breast, not weaning onto foods, is insecurity about GS growing up and being more independent. GS HAS to rely on her for sustenance ...
Hm, now I've written that, it makes sense about GS eating outside of the home environment. GS's Mum wants to keep him at the cute baby stage - and achieving that by starving him into miniature-ness is appalling.
OMG, as I'm typing [apologies] it occurs to me that's a classic Narcissist Personality Disorder trait. GS 'supplies' the need to have a 'Mother' status, and perversely, some kind of competitive 'best mother status' too [Most Breast-fed Baby - she's obsessed with 'boasting' about that on Facebook/ Most Fun Toddler to have 'coffee and cake' moments with - ditto pics and boasting on Facebook; Child Most Likely to fall over and end up with the biggest bruises/ Most Photogenic child [he is blonde and angelic-looking] to pose with/ Child Most Likely to give her sleepless nights; Her Life as a Parent, most likely to cause her deep despair and depression- which she has written long screeds about on Facebook - attracting the inevitable "You're amazing Hun...I cried when I read what you're going through..." comments]. It's perverse, attention-seeking, disturbing, and alienating.
GF even posted up pics of her elderly GM [passed now] sitting in her kitchen, clearly ill, legs akimbo, wearing nothing but a short nightdress. The poor lady would have been mortified and humiliated if she'd realised 100s of people had seen that pic. Inevitably, the comments were what a heroine GF was for looking after her poorly GM. However, even some of her [few] friends have approached me in the street, and say that this really disturbs them too, and concerned about GS wellbeing.
Oh, jeepers. I'm trying not to overthink it all, but it's far more complex than I wanted to think it was; I'm trying to keep it SIMPLE: GS needs to eat/nutrition, but I've kept my peace from the sidelines for a decade while has been was going on, but now with GS's situation I cannot, with all conscience, not speak out.
Although - a great healthy chocolate mousse pudding, if you have avocados to hand is -more or less - simply pureed avocado and cocoa [Lidl's cocoa powder is gorgeously rich flavoured, perhaps with a little vanilla essence and icing sugar to taste.
I've also whipped up [Ninja Bullet] frozen puddings/ icecream with Aqua Faba - chickpea 'juice' avocado, cocoa. But Alpro puddings look a great standby to have in the cupboard - thank you
Far North - good point about the Alpro desserts, I'll remember to get some in stock - invites aside, DS seems to turn up, around lunch times, and while I can quickly throw together a savoury dish, I don't always have pudding ingredients, aside from fruit... and, haha, any vegan, Swedish Glace Icecream in the freezer, I'm afraid Grandma here will have already eaten.
User7777 - I feel the same way inasmuch, explain one's beliefs about food and they can make their own minds up/ informed decisions when they're old enough ... but, dictate - let alone deny a child food is appalling
Neither my DS or GF seem to actually observe GS to pick up any signals - hence oblivious to GS 'spaced out' /blood sugar levels incident, sorted out with some Weetabix.
- I happened to watch GS reaction sitting next to his 3 year old cousin [a week before that GS Leukemia diagnosis, and very poorly, not eating food, but thankfully tucking into a Mr Whippy from the icecream van which had chimed and driven up outside.
GS looked at his fruit lolly [Nestle, is that an ethical choice?] and the "messy icecream" all over his poorly but laughingly happy cousin's chin and face. Then he looked at his own melting small lolly. Then he heard the iceceam van chimes again, "messy c'cream" he said, getting up, heading for the door... quite clearly, he wanted the same icecream - dairy, ulp! - as the other kid's.
I said to DS, "Did you see that? Looks like he's saying he wants a 'messy ice-cream' like his cousin's, can't he have one too?"
No.
Apparently, according to DS, among all my catering efforts for a small army of vegans/carnivores/food allergies - I could have thought beforehand and provided vegan ice-cream.
Actually, I did think of this 'beforehand' - Swedish (?) dairy-free ice-cream is gorgeous - but, No-Car Nanny failed; too exhausted with cooking for 16 hours straight, to walk all the way to the shops.
Thank you all - some good, grounding, advice, which is very appreciated. It's been so hard and isolating, not knowing what to do or having anyone, other Grans etc, to share my concerns with.
I gather someone will also come to the home to observe [DS's GF wasn't sure who i.e., which 'field' whether Dietician / District Nurse /Pediatrician.
Not knowing - is par for the course ☹ - I had to step in a few times to help GF's elderly Great-grandmother, now passed, when GF claimed she'd called e.g., GP/Housing/Adult Social Care, only to discover she'd either called none of them, OR didn’t know who she’d called, OR, had turned down care(!) / housing repairs etc, on the GGm behalf, and then was complaining to me, that they wouldn't do anything for her [GF, not the grandmother!].
DS's sibling and partner - parents of two, aged either side of this GS - we all got to the stage of agreeing how worried we all were about GS - and that, no help for it, Grandma might have to be the one to make a call to social services ... then, I'm so sorry, eldest GC (3 yrs) was hospitalised with Leukemia and all concerns went on hold with the horrors of that situation.
Thankfully, just in remission now and can start worrying about this GS.
It's been dreadful, surfacing from two months of solid stress, picking up GS to realise now my head’s a bit clearer, that he hasn't - as his parents claimed - put on weight; that he hasn't - as parents claimed - advanced with his language development; that he's not eating any more than he was two months ago.
Vegansrocks – your words really resonate – they don’t have a clue. Yes, I have got to the point of hotly but diplomatically as I can of - removing all the processed snacks from the pram, if I take GS out, on the grounds “I won't feed a child this cr*p”... and mouthed the words "it's tantamount to abuse" at GS's parents, and taken fruit with me... he rarely eats any, but it was worth the look on their faces to see GS cheerfully tuck into a banana which Grandma offered instead. I don't mean that in a triumphal sense - just the relief that it demonstrated to them GS is capable of eating more than 'chemicals' out of a packet.
So, I agree - there's more going on here than a picky toddler, if he'll - not always - eat under different circumstances than his home environment. I agree with Deeda that GS parents don't seem to have much of a relationship with him - what I've observed over the decade they've been together is the GF profligate spending is a kneejerk stress response - so many times, the answer to any stressy moment is to spend money on something – a £400 new dog before the old one had even died [hugely expensively, at the Vets], mail order furniture, a car - without taking a breath and thinking things through... the almighty blow up I thought was probably them splitting up, ended up instead with, "We're having a baby too" [straight after my other DS and devoted partner's baby was born].
In this case, the rash expensive decision was to have a baby [like their Bro/BIL] and then, rapidly get bored, when the ‘real parenting’ had to start i.e., delaying introducing solid food, and changing that into kudos for an exclusively breast-fed child. [NB, both my DS were breast-fed, so I’m supportive – but, again, gently pointed out to deaf ears, simply breast milk won’t supply 100% of a growing child’s nutritional needs forever].
It's kind of telling, that – apparently - GS will eat ‘lots’ at nursery, during his once a week there. Or, so his parents say.
It’s very soon I believe that the Dietician appointments are happening – I’ll try and get a straight answer about the outcome. I’ll try to keep inviting DS [Househusband] and GS – five minutes away – to lunch; I’ll also try to keep asking why the heck DS and GF aren’t appearing to talk to each other – he doesn’t know what he’s supposed to feed their child during the day, and GF tells me she has no idea what DS is feeding GS during the day.
If that doesn’t make any difference in the very near future, then I have to make a call.
Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. ☹
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