Hoarding and filthy house

I worked as a clinician in Mental Health working with seriously ill living in the community.
It's difficult to describe what some of the flats were like..dog excrement on the stairs, bags of rubbish with maggots on the landing etc.
If someone declines or does not think they need help, then it's very difficult to force it on them. Obviously dangers to health will lead to intervention from various authorities.
Are your daughter and family suffering physically, or mentally? It's a fine line to tread if everything is ticking along, even if you disapprove of their living standards.
It is possible the first call will come from neighbours about outside rubbish..

I have already suggested that the PIP could pay for a cleaner if the mess and dirt is sorted out first. I s the money instead being spent on all these parcels of more stuff which keep arriving? That’s not what it’s meant for.

Tenaciousd I do so sympathise with your feelings of helplessness and worry for your granddaughter. It is so hard to stand back, but honestly there is nothing you can do until your daughter and son-in-law are ready to act. My daughter-in-law is a hoarder, livingroom rates a 6 on that USA scale and I won't tell you about the bedrooms, of which there are four. My son is distressed and stressed as if he touches anything that belongs to her she goes berserk. When they married and moved into this lovely large house it took less than three weeks for it to be well beyond clutter. She brought to it nine cats and two dogs, all never going out, kept indoors. She has a highly paid and responsible job which she enjoys, but goes into the office only one day a week, working the rest from home. No-one is welcome to visit. My son has retreated to one bedroom which has become a bed-sit. as whenever he tries to do anything to clear/clean she becomes very aggressive. I try to keep out of it, and let him rant when he visits me. The atmosphere is toxic, the house a bio hazard. I fear the marriage wont last. I so wish she would accept help as she is beautiful, talented and otherwise all one could wish for in a daughter in law. No children.

What is the reason for your daughter's PPI? She only gets it because she has a long term condition for which she needs help. The situation in her house demonstrates that she needs help.

It is difficult for you to understand what kind of help. I would look at Stacey Solomons sort your life out on TV and read the book - Sort Your Life Out (Hardback)
An indispensable volume for everyone looking to transform their home into a haven of order and calm, Sort Your Life Out dispenses wonderful practicable advice for decluttering, sorting and systemising your living space.

Decluttering and systematizing is a skill your daughter may not have. Also she may have a disability that out of sight is out of mind which means she forgets she has something if she cannot see it.

I would suggest that everything needs to be visible and if put in a box it should be see though and labeled.

Why don't you offer to help out in the kitchen? this is used every day and needs to be kept clean. It is a complex area of management. In the programmes I have suggested you watch Dilly Carter shows you how to orgainse visible storage in many different kitchens. Perhaps you can ask your daughter to watch the programmes with her and listen very carefully to what she says. If you offer to be the Dilly Carter ask her what she would like you to achieve. If the kitchen is too complex you might be able to assist with the laundry. Each person has their own laundry bag and when an item is washed and dried it goes into a basket with their name on for them to return to their room.

You will also realize that one of the problems is that there is not enough storage space and surfaces in the right place but that is another problem.

I have a declutterer once a month for 3 hours to help me!

All the best for you and your daughter

The health hazard of cat and rabbit droppings would concern me if your gd is poorly with tummy upsets then I would be tempted to address it

I cannot agree with those who think OP should do and say nothing.

Dirty cat litter and rabbit droppings all over the place might well constitute health hazards, as might a bathroom that is never cleaned and a kitchen that is dirty.

There is a great difference between living in an untidy house and a dirty one, after all.

It sounds to me as if OP's daughter might be depressed, so encouraging her to go to her doctor is a place to start, so is a kind but honest talk between mother and daughter about the conditions of daugher's house and whether it is kind, healthy or right to bring a child up in such a mess.

It sounds fine that the granddaughter is invited to children's parties, but that will likely soon stop when other children's parents realise that their children are never invited in return.

You're whole post is judgemental If I was your family you wouldn't get over my doorstep to judge!!

I think there are a few issues here...if your daughter is on PIP, it will either be for physical or mental health reasons and it's usually paid because someone needs assistance / support with daily living...however you say she does do some things, are any of those activities with support?
That could be the reason behind the cleaning...however why can't your SIL clean? I appreciate you say he works full time but a lot of people do and still clean!
Have you spoken with them, asked if you can help?

Another poster is correct - a house in that state would be enough for child services to step in.....

Would / could your SIL family help in any way?

The daughter is on pip for a reason. Tagging someone I’ll as lazy isn’t helpful

There are issues here and you certainly are NOT being critical as one person has posted. Cat and rabbit faeces are a definite health hazard, as are rats. It sounds like a minefield for you, so why not tell social services? Hoarding is a very deep-seated psychological problem, not easy to treat. I understand you may be stymied by worry about whether social services might take away your granddaughter. Maybe try to get more information as to possible outcomes? I really feel for you - good luck!

I have a good friend/ neighbour like this. I could not do it but she seems very happy and healthy and raised 2 boys who are now in great jobs. I don’t go to her house a lot, we go out to films/ meals etc and would never go to her loo and my son when a teenager wd wash his glass before using, she is not phased at all by saying she never does housework . It just seems to be her lifestyle.

If nothing changes, nothing changes.

It can become a vicious cycle - this mess depresses me, but I have no motivation to do anything about it. This place depresses me, but I am too depressed to do anything about it.

I wonder if she maybe needs to talk to someone. Not necessarily a doctor as they may just hand out pills to mask the source of the issue. Unless she talks about how she is feeling or says there is an issue then there isnt one.

I work in child services and yes this could possibly be seen as neglect
Living in an enviroment like this can have a severe detrimental effect on the health and well being of children
Your DIL needs help

Thanks biglouis, interesting.

The first thing is for your DD to want to clear up and clean, tenacious.
Until she decides it's not healthy for any of them to live like that, nothing will get better.

Your SIL seems to have given up. Is your DGD well cared for, bathed and fed?
Was your DD like this when she lived at home or is she depressed? Is it PND and she just can't cope, doesn't know where to start? Compulsive shopping could be another symptom.

Perhaps you could talk to your SIL about the best way to start, but you can't help unless they want you to.

Germanshepherdsmum

Has she consulted her doctor? She sounds to me as though she is depressed and in need of treatment.

I’m afraid your granddaughter is at risk. She can’t play outside, is living in a dirty house and will be unable to form friendships with other children because they won’t be allowed to go to her home.

I too think she needs to see a GP.

Elrel

biglouis Thank you for the USA scale. I am slightly relieved that I seem to be no more cluttered than 2 with the living room approaching 3. It’s a long story going back to March when I had new curtains and carpets. The carpet fitting was an unpleasant experience and I have not managed to get straight since. Time to face up to it I guess!

I’ve had to select 1 for every room, as I don’t have ‘stuff’ on the floor anywhere! My surfaces are all clear ( we won’t talk about cupboards and drawers!)

The PIP could be used for a cleaner if the house is sorted out first. And perhaps some storage - wardrobes and chests of drawers - for all these piles of clothes, a linen bin for those awaiting washing and a washing basket for those washed and awaiting ironing/putting away.

I don’t want to go down the ‘it sounds to me’ road, which happens very often on threads, based on limited information, but see that * Tenacious* used to go once a week to clean, but seems to have stopped doing so. Was that her decision or theirs? Very often people have very different ideas of what constitutes ‘a tip’. Regardless of that, until help is asked for, I’d be doing nothing, as it’s up to them how to live.
Also, having worked with families for many years, I think you’d be surprised at how bad conditions have to be before Social Services are ‘concerned’, and I don’t think lack of organisation or of nutritious home-cooked meals would count.

Of course everything now is 'mental health issues.'
It sounds far more like laziness.

I would assume that as your daughter is eligible for PIP, then her GP is aware that she has health issues? If these have got worse, and it would appear that they have, her GP needs to be consulted and additional support made available. Is there any way you could persuade her to see her GP Tenaciousd, with you accompanying her? I agree with GSM that your granddaughter is at risk, living in these totally unsavoury conditions, without access to the garden, and not able to invite friends to play. It is comforting that she spends time at your home, but this situation is totally untenable and needs to be addressed without further delay.

biglouis Thank you for the USA scale. I am slightly relieved that I seem to be no more cluttered than 2 with the living room approaching 3. It’s a long story going back to March when I had new curtains and carpets. The carpet fitting was an unpleasant experience and I have not managed to get straight since. Time to face up to it I guess!

I completely agree. Whilst he appears embarrassed he doesn’t appear to want to do anything. This is why I’m concerned for them both.

Trust me, it’s not clutter. It breaks my heart.

There is an important psychological difference between "clutter" and "hoarding" which is often misunderstood by lay people.

Clutter (which sounds like your relatives house) is a situation where possessions are disorganized and may accumulate around living areas. Dust on furniture, washing not put away, toys scattered around, dishes not washed. That sort of thing.

I had an aunt who lived like this. It was difficult to find anywhere to sit without moving a pile of clothes or magazines from a chair. My aunt would cheerfully sit and watch TV or chat when there was a lot of housework and tidying up to be done. It did not phase her what other people thought.

People who have clutter are usually aware of the fact and would like to reduce it. Often they simply lack the will or organizational ability to begin. They are not obsessively attached to items and unwilling to discard them in the same way as a true hoarder.

Hoarding is something else entirely. This is where possessions become unorganized piles preventing rooms from being used for their intended purpose. True hoarders are often obsessively attached to the hoard, which may comprise items which are broken, useless or without any apparent value. For example piles of newspapers or magazines which are ripped, dirty and are stored in no usable form. Any action which forces them to part with items in the horde causes intense distress.

Here is a link to an interesting (USA) site which shows various images which allow one to distinguish between clutter, collections and hoarding.

www.multco.us/ads/what-difference-between%C2%A0clutter-collecting-and-hoarding

is your son in law content to live in the mess? he should be getting stuck in to help keep on top of things, it's not just a wife's fault.