Hoarding and filthy house

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Why are you ashamed to admit?
Why would SS need to be called?

If you are really worried about the hygiene aspects can you spend the day with your DD and clean with her?

On the face of it she sounds lonely and depressed but the baby?and pets are cared for. Lots of new mums thrust into living alone with a baby or toddler will be in similar situations.
They go out and socialise so that's good. Are there toddler groups and somewhere your DD could find support?
You sound rather critical.

Tenaciousd yes, I think mess and clutter can make you feel stressed and down. This seems so much more than busy family life though. If your daughter and SIL have asked for help there are lots of things you can suggest or help with but you seem to suggest that the ' want to live like this'. If you have a close relationship I would empathise firstly about the hard work of housekeeping with a young family then suggest one thing to help them with. A Saturday morning kitchen declutter maybe, don't overwhelm them with a list of tasks.
It must be very distressing to see your family live like this, I hope they manage to get their lives together and are happy (not suggesting show home perfection, just clean, safe and manageable)

Whilst it's really their business if they choose to exist this way, I suspect a garden full of rubbish may possibly cause the neighbours to contact the local council pest controller if vermin are attracted to the mess. Therefore they at least need to tackle the outside if not the inside.

Is the child clean and cared for?
Does the house stink?
Mess and clutter is one thing; is the house really filthy, or just uncared for?
It is perfectly possible to cook nutritious food in a kitchen full of dirty dishes.
I get the impression their housekeeping standards are not yours, which does not necessarily mean they are dangerous.

It must be upsetting for you tenaciousd. I have been in a house like that, although thankfully not a relatives home.
It does sound a lot worse than just untidy. If it carries on without intervention then it could end up a social services case and there could be photos of the mess and people will be asking “how did it get so bad?”

There must be a way you could suggest to your daughter tactfully that you could help her to get on top of things again. Good luck.

Please, please. please tread very carefully. Hoarders are extremely vulnerable.

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/hoarding/helping-someone-who-hoards/

The situation was misjudged for a family member of ours with consequences that we are still trying to sort out 4 years later.

If social services were to see these living conditions, I'm not saying they'd take my granddaughter away, but I am certain that they'd be concerned and it scares me

I did read recently that social services can take notice of mess, as that can form part of neglect of a child.

I am not sure I would be concerned about what lessons gc is learning.
Sometimes a child can grow up and go the other way to what they were living like.

meals - is your gd malnourished?

I would tread carefully though.

From your op, it doesnt sound like child neglect?
But difficult for online readers to know/guess.

I don’t think the op sounds ^critical* She is concerned for a child, who, in a year or so will be going to school.
From what the op says there is little chance of that child presenting clean and tidy.
Try and imagine how that child will be bullied. Added to that there is no chance that she can have a birthday party or have friends round.

The child is, it seems, three. She goes to other children’s parties. Does she have birthday parties or friends round to play? Her living conditions will be judged by other parents whose children visit. She will likely end up unable to have friends round to play. Is she kept clean? Are her clothes clean? If not she will be bullied. I would be surprised if the neighbours didn’t already gossip about the state of things. If she were my grandchild I wouldn’t be able to stand by - I would be offering some hands-on help despite being an hour away. If mum is depressed she will lack motivation and the worse the mess becomes, the more depressed she will become. A visit to the gp is needed.

Cross post petra,

I couldn’t stand by and watch this either.
Without intervention it will get worse.
Is there anyone else in the family your daughter & SIL may listen to?
Does your SIL have family that are concerned.

Tenaciousd This is a very difficult situation, and as others have suggested, you need to tread so carefully. However, your daughter needs help, before this situation becomes even worse. They are living in a health hazard, and both your daughter and son-in-law avoid confronting this by socialising and now (in your s-i-l’s case) ceasing to work from home. I would have to help by spending a few hours cleaning the kitchen, bathroom, washing clothes to start with. If your daughter is responsive, you could suggest a visit to her GP, and accompany her. Please keep us updated, as this is so very worrying.

They could be overwhelmed by it or blind to it. Do you ever talk about it with them?

When your daughter says excuse the mess you could say that you will organise things for her to make life easier. Then go for the day and blitz the place, if you do this regularly she may hopefully start liking it clean and tidier and make a bit of effort.

Perhaps I should have used the word ‘sad’ rather than ashamed.
I certainly did not say that I thought SS would ‘need’ to be called. I know there are other concerned parties and my fear is that someone else might involve them.
I used to go weekly to clean and have done everything to support them. I regularly have my granddaughter to stay to give them a break. I certainly don’t want to keep offering to help for fear of being seen to be ‘interfering’.
My granddaughter is not at any risk; she’s happy and beautiful but cannot play in her garden or learn basic life skills as things are such as tidying and putting things away in their place.
I can’t elaborate but my daughter’s behaviour is worrying me and i feel it’s a vicious circle, being unable to keep on top of things, then the chaotic environment possibly compounding the way she feels.

Has she consulted her doctor? She sounds to me as though she is depressed and in need of treatment.

I’m afraid your granddaughter is at risk. She can’t play outside, is living in a dirty house and will be unable to form friendships with other children because they won’t be allowed to go to her home.

Is your granddaughter clean and well turned out Tenaciousd, I think that’s more important than the state of the house, because it shows whether she is well cared for? If she isn’t, I’d initially speak to my daughter specifically about that, and see if I could help - offer to wash and press her clothes, have her to stay with you weekly and bathe her, or whatever it takes to help them and her out. A small start may make all the difference to them all if you offer, whether it’s that or another issue you can help them work on,

is your son in law content to live in the mess? he should be getting stuck in to help keep on top of things, it's not just a wife's fault.

There is an important psychological difference between "clutter" and "hoarding" which is often misunderstood by lay people.

Clutter (which sounds like your relatives house) is a situation where possessions are disorganized and may accumulate around living areas. Dust on furniture, washing not put away, toys scattered around, dishes not washed. That sort of thing.

I had an aunt who lived like this. It was difficult to find anywhere to sit without moving a pile of clothes or magazines from a chair. My aunt would cheerfully sit and watch TV or chat when there was a lot of housework and tidying up to be done. It did not phase her what other people thought.

People who have clutter are usually aware of the fact and would like to reduce it. Often they simply lack the will or organizational ability to begin. They are not obsessively attached to items and unwilling to discard them in the same way as a true hoarder.

Hoarding is something else entirely. This is where possessions become unorganized piles preventing rooms from being used for their intended purpose. True hoarders are often obsessively attached to the hoard, which may comprise items which are broken, useless or without any apparent value. For example piles of newspapers or magazines which are ripped, dirty and are stored in no usable form. Any action which forces them to part with items in the horde causes intense distress.

Here is a link to an interesting (USA) site which shows various images which allow one to distinguish between clutter, collections and hoarding.

www.multco.us/ads/what-difference-between%C2%A0clutter-collecting-and-hoarding

Trust me, it’s not clutter. It breaks my heart.

I completely agree. Whilst he appears embarrassed he doesn’t appear to want to do anything. This is why I’m concerned for them both.

biglouis Thank you for the USA scale. I am slightly relieved that I seem to be no more cluttered than 2 with the living room approaching 3. It’s a long story going back to March when I had new curtains and carpets. The carpet fitting was an unpleasant experience and I have not managed to get straight since. Time to face up to it I guess!

I would assume that as your daughter is eligible for PIP, then her GP is aware that she has health issues? If these have got worse, and it would appear that they have, her GP needs to be consulted and additional support made available. Is there any way you could persuade her to see her GP Tenaciousd, with you accompanying her? I agree with GSM that your granddaughter is at risk, living in these totally unsavoury conditions, without access to the garden, and not able to invite friends to play. It is comforting that she spends time at your home, but this situation is totally untenable and needs to be addressed without further delay.

Of course everything now is 'mental health issues.'
It sounds far more like laziness.