too old to be guardians?

The Courts are aware that children generally do better with family. I can’t imagine a decision that doesn’t support your family’s plans

I was a social worker in child protection for nearly 20 years , though long retired, agree with the posts from NannyTils and Spabbygirl and others.
I am so very sorry about your daughter Lulu and hope you can all now be a little reassured by what they have said so you can concentrate on your daughter and her children at this difficult and painful time. Xx

I’m a social worker and I prepare welfare reports for the Court. As you’re in Scotland, you’d need to apply to the Sheriff Court for Residence Orders. You’d need a solicitor to do this, but it’s a fairly straightforward process. The court may ask for a Welfare Report and is very likely to if the application is contested (e.g. by the father). Usually, a key aspect the court takes into account is what course of action provides stability for the children e.g so they can continue at the same school, if possible, and maintain friendships, or at very least be with people they know at a traumatic time. Be assured that local authorities have no interest in taking children into care when there are caring family members available to look after them. It would go against all Scottish legal and policy approaches. However, their father will have parental rights and responsibilities so his position is significant in all of this. If the court makes a residence order in favour of grandparents, they would almost certainly expect some kind of agreement between the adults re how the children can have contact with the father, if they wish. It’s a requirement and expectation that Courts should ascertain the views of the children, and their views are taken into account and usually respected.
The age of the grandparents is not necessarily taken into account, but health and support systems would be e.g. are there other family members who would help out if necessary?

lulus3

spabbygirl

I was a child protection social worker in Gloucestershire and we had excellent and very busy foster carers age 83, they did really well and were still active after I left 2yrs later. The age of the children really helps, no night time feeds etc, & you can buy in outside help like cleaning if you find you get physically tired. I was an older mum/foster carer & found what you loose in physical care you gain in emotional care, young people love chats about emotional issues & you'll have experience to do that more so than many younger people.
In england you apply to the court for a special guardianship order and they send a social worker to speak to all parties & produce a report for the family court. The court also won't want to separate the children, who presumably will want too stay with you. The eldest is almost of age anyway. I've written many of these reports. The court will award an SGO to you if they agree that is best (sounds like that is the case) and that gives you greater parental responsibility as well as the natural parents, they don't loose PR. Courts are well used to dealing with unhelpful ex's. SGO's are super arrangement.
You can see the format the social worker has to use (its not a form but format) if you google special guardianship assessment, and there is a good website called sgoinfo.co.uk
Many grandparents feel like you & worry about not getting it but their worries are usually unfounded, it's the chaotic, problematic families whose children may need to be cared for by someone else, ie. foster care. So sorry about your daughter

thank you, that's really helpful to hear! We have a similar thing here in Scotland, just a bit scary to read some stories re SGO's, even read of one where social workers put the children in care while they did all the reports etc, which would be so wrong. Every case is so different of course. We do think there are enough things to be said against their father having them, not least having no accommodation for them! May I private message you with some info, would be interested to get your professional views? It's a very upsetting time here, but working out various plans is kind of looking to the future and hoping it all works out. thanks

Hi Lulu, glad you found that helpful and yes, do message me, the bar for a local authority to take a child into care is really high, often there are young people I'd have liked to take into care but can't because the grounds are insufficient, there are many children in what I see as a grey area who stay with their natural parents. Those that are in care whilst the report is being written are those whose proposed new parents have doubt about them, perhaps they might allow a violent parent into their home, maybe they are happy for people whose commitment to keeping children safe is questionable and they might allow people to take the children out against the local authority's instructions, maybe there are queries about their own drug or alcohol use or unwanted sexual activities. Those young people won't be not allowed to stay with their new families for no good reason, it has to be a good reason with proof. The LA has to prove that putting the children in care is better for them than being with family. It also has to prove that it has a better alternative and finding places for 4 without separating them is very difficult. From what you said there just isn't evidence to remove them and no LA would want to cause disruption to the children by taking them away from family without good reason. It is CAFCAS, the children and family court advisory service who would supply the social worker to write the report, the exception being if a family have had contact with the local authority in which case they might supply the social worker, as they'd have easier access to those records. Does the father want to care for them or is he happy for you to with lots of contact? It does help if he agrees and contact is agreed, however difficult that can be with some people's past behaviour. It does feel very uncertain for grandparents in this position.

mabon, thanks for sharing your story. A positive outcome for your grandchildren and for you. SW often are only publicised when things go wrong. There are so many families who fiubd themselves in a difficult place but for whom sensitive support helped

No experience to offer, but I wish you all the love and best wishes possible at this dreadful time. I truly hope it is straightforward enough for all your sakes. There is no good age for these children but it will fly by so quickly and they will need you and each other not strangers.

Lulus your hearts must be breaking,I am so sorry you are in this dreadful situation. Your DD doing her very best to ensure her Children will be loved and cared for. I hope the courts look favourably on you all.

I am so sorry to hear about your daughter Lulus3

madeleine45

A very sad time for you all and I hope that all the legal things are sorted out quickly and allow your daughter to know that her wishes will be carried out. I just thought to mention, she might like to write a letter for each of the children to open when they are 18, or whatever age she thinks would be right. As an opportunity for her to put in those things that she would have been able to talk about and say to the adult they had become. Of course you will be there to tell them how much she loved them and how hard she tried to stay with them. I have a very precious and battered old letter that means a great deal to me even now. I read it when times are hard ,and just enjoy seeing the writing and everything about it gives me a small physical contact with someone very dear to me.I would never forget the person but find it comforting to have the letter. I dont know if this would be something she would like to do, or if the suggestion just makes things worse, but thought I would suggest it. I hope that knowing you will be there for her children will give her some comfort . You are doing the very best you can for them all and I hope you get whatever help you need.

thank you - she has already done this for them, to open at future dates. I think it's a lovely thing to do. We are also going to have a part of the garden as 'her garden' with lots of her plants, and a bench.

It is a sad situation. Our two grandsons were taken away from their mother because of her cruelty ( not violent but mental) We would have gladly taken them in, My late husband was 13 years older than myself , he was 71. My son had been involved in a serious road accident, been left with brain damage and incapble of looking after them. After great thought and consideration, it was decided that the boys would go to foster parents. They were so fortunate to have foster parents who went the extra mile for them and I will be forever grateful for their love and care over 10 years, they would not be where they are today. Another thing to think about is the financial aspect. I know that we could not have given them half of what they received from their lovely foster parents as they are "paid" to look after them. Three teenagers are very costly, just saying, but perhaps you are in a much better financial situation than we were. They boys spent two weekends a month with us, our bond is still strong, they have presented us with great grandchildren now. Woderful.

Thanks spabbygirl for detailing your experience of SGO’s. Spot on,

A very sad time for you all and I hope that all the legal things are sorted out quickly and allow your daughter to know that her wishes will be carried out. I just thought to mention, she might like to write a letter for each of the children to open when they are 18, or whatever age she thinks would be right. As an opportunity for her to put in those things that she would have been able to talk about and say to the adult they had become. Of course you will be there to tell them how much she loved them and how hard she tried to stay with them. I have a very precious and battered old letter that means a great deal to me even now. I read it when times are hard ,and just enjoy seeing the writing and everything about it gives me a small physical contact with someone very dear to me.I would never forget the person but find it comforting to have the letter. I dont know if this would be something she would like to do, or if the suggestion just makes things worse, but thought I would suggest it. I hope that knowing you will be there for her children will give her some comfort . You are doing the very best you can for them all and I hope you get whatever help you need.

Lathyrus3

Is it possible to assume guardianship now? I hesitate to suggest it because of the stress involved, but maybe the stress of worry about what might happen in the future is worse than the stress of going ahead in the present?

Hi - in Scottish law here, being named guardians in the will means we will become the legal guardians when she dies. The problem would then arise if the ex decides to contest it, and not agree to shared parental responsibility (with us having final say in their upbringing, welfare, residency, etc.,) and we go to family court, we are concerned that despite having everything else in our favour, and lots against him, that court could just say we are too old. It really seems to depend on any reports.

First I want to say how very sorry I am to hear about your daughter's illness. It must be devastating for all of you.

My daughter has already told me that she would expect me to take her children (currently 6 and 9) if anything happened to her. My husband is 78 and I am 73 and I worry that we would be too old to look after them by the time they were 18 but as in your case there is honestly no real alternative and I know that we would take it on. Since they were adopted just four years ago we would particularly not want them to go back into the care system. She is also a foster carer and (with the blessing of the care system) I've given her a fair amount of support with both her own children and her foster children so I hope I'd be reasonably well prepared.
If your daughter has chosen that the children live with you I agree with others that it would probably make sense to put things in motion now?

Is it possible to assume guardianship now? I hesitate to suggest it because of the stress involved, but maybe the stress of worry about what might happen in the future is worse than the stress of going ahead in the present?

Such a heartbreaking time for you all. No legal advice but I am sure that Social Work, any Court you may need to engage with will be pleased your DD has expressed her wishes with regard to the children. The children's views will also be considered especially if their father makes any challenge. Given all the preparation prior to her death I am sure consideration will also have been given to any future changes. I lost my DD which I still mourn and her situation was not so sensitive as your family's. Just no words.

spabbygirl

I was a child protection social worker in Gloucestershire and we had excellent and very busy foster carers age 83, they did really well and were still active after I left 2yrs later. The age of the children really helps, no night time feeds etc, & you can buy in outside help like cleaning if you find you get physically tired. I was an older mum/foster carer & found what you loose in physical care you gain in emotional care, young people love chats about emotional issues & you'll have experience to do that more so than many younger people.
In england you apply to the court for a special guardianship order and they send a social worker to speak to all parties & produce a report for the family court. The court also won't want to separate the children, who presumably will want too stay with you. The eldest is almost of age anyway. I've written many of these reports. The court will award an SGO to you if they agree that is best (sounds like that is the case) and that gives you greater parental responsibility as well as the natural parents, they don't loose PR. Courts are well used to dealing with unhelpful ex's. SGO's are super arrangement.
You can see the format the social worker has to use (its not a form but format) if you google special guardianship assessment, and there is a good website called sgoinfo.co.uk
Many grandparents feel like you & worry about not getting it but their worries are usually unfounded, it's the chaotic, problematic families whose children may need to be cared for by someone else, ie. foster care. So sorry about your daughter

thank you, that's really helpful to hear! We have a similar thing here in Scotland, just a bit scary to read some stories re SGO's, even read of one where social workers put the children in care while they did all the reports etc, which would be so wrong. Every case is so different of course. We do think there are enough things to be said against their father having them, not least having no accommodation for them! May I private message you with some info, would be interested to get your professional views? It's a very upsetting time here, but working out various plans is kind of looking to the future and hoping it all works out. thanks

AuntieE

I am so sorry to hear of your sad family situation. Lulu, do ask a solicitor who is used to handling this kind of case for advice. It may cost money, but knowing exactly where you stand will be worth it.

Your eldest grandchild will soon be 16, and I very much doubt that a sixteen year old will be forced to live anywhere where he or she does not want to, after all you can still marry at sixteen in Scotland, can't you?

But consult a solicitor about what constitutes an unfit guardian, because if your grandchildren's father contests their mother's will regarding guardianship, you may well have to wash dirty linen in court, so make sure what you can put forward as grounds for him not being eligible and how to word it, so you are not sued for defamation of character!

Thanks - it is already stated in her will, along with affidavits setting out reasons why their father would not be suitable. My husband plus daughter's best friend are executors as well as trustees of the children's inherited money - one thing the ex will not be able to touch. We have documented (screenshots of messages to my daughter over several years, among other things) evidence of why he would be unfit. We have also been told as he has never requested custody, being content to just see them occasional weekends or the odd day, plus the children wish to be with us, that if he did contest things with the family court, that he would be extremely unlikely to win. Especially as he's been told there is no way he could get any money as it's all in trust. The only thing we are concerned about really is our age, and we have read of so many SGO case reports from social workers taking months - which is not going to help with the children's anxiety etc - and sometimes SS going for a parent to win; despite having clear reasons to not allow it some of them do still have the 'any parent is best' mentality!

Almost 20 years ago my husband and I took on the care of my daughter’s sons, then aged 4 years old and 4 months old, in circumstances very similar to yours. I was 60 and my husband 62. We are in England, and had to go through the Court system, which included being assessed by CAFCASS. All went well. The boys are still with us - the older one is now 23 and an accountant and the younger, now 19, is at university doing a degree in medicine. We are so proud of them. I am now 79 and my husband is 81. We have never regretted our decision.

I was a child protection social worker in Gloucestershire and we had excellent and very busy foster carers age 83, they did really well and were still active after I left 2yrs later. The age of the children really helps, no night time feeds etc, & you can buy in outside help like cleaning if you find you get physically tired. I was an older mum/foster carer & found what you loose in physical care you gain in emotional care, young people love chats about emotional issues & you'll have experience to do that more so than many younger people.
In england you apply to the court for a special guardianship order and they send a social worker to speak to all parties & produce a report for the family court. The court also won't want to separate the children, who presumably will want too stay with you. The eldest is almost of age anyway. I've written many of these reports. The court will award an SGO to you if they agree that is best (sounds like that is the case) and that gives you greater parental responsibility as well as the natural parents, they don't loose PR. Courts are well used to dealing with unhelpful ex's. SGO's are super arrangement.
You can see the format the social worker has to use (its not a form but format) if you google special guardianship assessment, and there is a good website called sgoinfo.co.uk
Many grandparents feel like you & worry about not getting it but their worries are usually unfounded, it's the chaotic, problematic families whose children may need to be cared for by someone else, ie. foster care. So sorry about your daughter

I am so sorry to hear of your sad family situation. Lulu, do ask a solicitor who is used to handling this kind of case for advice. It may cost money, but knowing exactly where you stand will be worth it.

Your eldest grandchild will soon be 16, and I very much doubt that a sixteen year old will be forced to live anywhere where he or she does not want to, after all you can still marry at sixteen in Scotland, can't you?

But consult a solicitor about what constitutes an unfit guardian, because if your grandchildren's father contests their mother's will regarding guardianship, you may well have to wash dirty linen in court, so make sure what you can put forward as grounds for him not being eligible and how to word it, so you are not sued for defamation of character!

I’m so very sorry to hear this, on a practical note can I assume your dear daughter has made a will specifying her wishes, if not then she should, were I in your place I would also retain a solicitor to act on the children’s behalf sooner rather than later, I do think that considering the parlous state of children’s services all over the UK they will be happy for the children not to go into care, a loo the children’s ages mean they can make their wishes known, good wishes to you all.

Lulus3, I’m sorry you’re having to face losing your daughter. I can only comment on my own experience, my Gran was made my legal guardian when I was 15 shortly before my mother died, my Gran was 76 years old at that time, I did have older siblings, but neither was in a position to take me in. My father died when I was 6 and we had limited contact with that side of the family for several years. The court agreed it was the best option for me to remain with people who cared about my welfare, I pray the courts will support your daughters wishes.

Iam64 lulus3 said it’s in her daughters will
I can’t help lulus but I really hope everything works out for you all, what a terribly sad situation, my very best wishes.

What a sad time for you lulus3.

I am in Scotland, my DH is seventy four and I am sixty nine. We have been designated legal guardians in my son and daughter in law's wills.
I don't know the ins and outs, but it was all done through a solicitor.