Should I complain about this? (Any nurses especially please) ?

@Missadventure

^Nobody should lay a finger on anyone without asking permission, and explaining why.
It's technically assault.^

The thing here is that the majority of people just accept what medical staff say to them is gospel.

What needs to happen is that the whole issue of permission needs to be built into the training of new doctors and nurses, and those already qualified need to be sent on a course and sign a document at the end of it to say that they've attended the training and fully understand the implications if they don't follow these instructions and a patient complains about not having been included in discussions about their care or not being asked permission before anything is done to them.

Several years ago, I attended something called the 'Expert Patient Programme', which, amongst other things, taught us how to make medical professionals talk to us in a language we understand, and to let them know that we know our rights and to make it clear that they must do nothing without our express permission.
Not long after the course, my partner was admitted to hospital with Chronic Necrotising Pancreatitis, it was horrible and he spent several months as an inpatient.
On his 3rd day in hospital I met his consultant and we sat down in a meeting room with a nurse to discuss exactly what was wrong with him and how they planned to treat him. Once they'd finished, I then told them that as his next of kin, I would be his advocate but they also needed to know that I have MS and they needed to treat him/us holistically, they needed to take everything into consideration, so my MS needed to be a major consideration in my partner's case because if I was stressed it would likely cause a relapse in my condition and as such I wouldn't be able to look after myself, never mind my son or even to be at the hospital to support my partner. Once I'd finished telling them what we needed and how things would progress from our point of view, the consultant agreed that basically, WE would have the final say in everything they wanted to do and he said he wanted to talk to my specialist nurse to see whether there was anything she thought they needed to do to support me. The meeting was arranged for the following day and from that point, everything the nurses wanted to do to my partner, they either asked him or when he wasn't lucid, me. On one occasion, I walked onto the ward to find him sitting on his bed with a big plastic bubble thing that made him look like a spaceman on his head but he was crying (a 39yr old man). I asked him what was wrong and he told me 2 nurses had said that he'd 'got to' have this helmet, no reason why and no request for permission, and they'd just shoved this thing on his head and he hated it but they wouldn't take it off. I asked him whether he wanted to keep it on or take it off, he said off, so I took it off him. A nurse walked by and saw that we'd taken this thing off and came over to tell us off. She was the one who got the telling off because she was one of the two who's put this thing on him, I told her in no uncertain terms that he didn't want this and hadn't been asked for his permission, so we'd taken it off. She ran off to tell a more senior nurse who came over and we had a chat about what this thing was for and other options and we decided on another option. The same outcome was achieved after a civilised chat and agreement from us to another course of action, without any upset, which could have been done earlier if those nurses had only talked to him.

Elizabeth27

I don't understand what your complaint would be, is it your nightie was up for longer as the wires were tangled or that the nurses did not speak whilst doing the ECG. The nurse that patted your knee could have mixed you up with someone else as you have not said anything that would elicit the comment that she would not hold it against you, unless you have missed something out.

I don't think Fanny has missed anything out. I think you perhaps haven't read it properly Elizabeth
The whole thing was undignified, unexplained unpleasant, distressing and unprofessional.

I think that's grounds for complaint.
It's hard enough to complain as it is without people minimising someone's distress.
You can read the distress in the language and phrasing of the post.
This was so upsetting and (basically) traumatic that she hasn't even been able to talk about it with her nearest and dearest.

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound unsympathetic but it did come across rather harsh. And do we know it was an ECG? Not knowing what is being done to you is demeaning and scary.

I required an ECG at my local surgery. I was taken into the room by the nurse and asked to remove my upper clothing, lay on the bed and was then connected up to all the sticky discs/leads etc.

The nurse was then called out of the room and said she would be back in a minute. Mmmmm. Half an hour later she returned and on entering the room said 'OMG', I forgot all about you!'

Me, being a good patient, had not wanted to move but was beginning to have cramp and was now rather chilly (and tired of praying that no extraneous beings would need to enter the room). This was 20 years or more ago but is still vivid in my memory!

I didn't report the nurse as it was an obvious mistake (unlike the OP's nurses who appear to have poor practice etc.).

I don't think these people realise what a difference a bit of warmth and kindness make to someone who is feeling fragile.

I would like to write about something that happened to my girl, but I still can't without crying, to this day.

Lucca

Shinamae

Lucca

Poor you, that’s not acceptable.
As it happens I’ve just put the phone down on my surgery (normally very helpful) as I was about to either start crying or swear.

Ring up and asked to speak to the practice manager and complain

Well the “message” got through and someone else more sympathetic dealt with me.

??????????????

Fanny, I'm sorry to hear of your experience. I have had umpteen ECGs and my dignity has always been maintained.
Furtehrmore, I have been advised first what was happening and if I was OK with it.

On second thoughts, the main recipient of your complaint should be the consultant in charge of your case.

I wrote such a letter on a disabled friend's behalf some time in the 1990s (Edinburgh). I got an interview in person with the head nurse and the nurse tutor, and the head nurse understood the situation and explained my complaint would be part of nurse education in his hospital in future. I also got positive replies from the local health authority chief, and the consultant.

I thought proper education in patient psychology was an important part of modern nurse education so I am disappointed to read Fanny's bad experience.

I'd be inclined to write to the matron or whatever the head nurse is called now. Or pay a lawyer to do the letter for me. Copies to the regional health authority and the consultant in charge of your case.

Made in Yorkshire - I don’t know if FannyC had her hip replaced privately but - my cataracts were done in a private hospital under the nhs. My eye history made the procedure complex. Manchester eye hospital’s waiting list was 2 years plus so I was referred to a local private hospital for essential surgery
This will happen more because of the mess the nhs I is in

Presumably as it was The Nuffield, you were also paying for the experience somehow too?

...just a gentle reminder MadeinYorkshire that we all pay for the NHS, its not 'free' just that there is no payment required at the point of need. If for whatever reason someone opts for private care, they pay twice over but standards of care shouldn't differ.

Definitely complain, either through PALS or ring to speak to the Ward Manager. This is wrong on so many levels and as a nurse I find I really hard to read.
ANY procedure needs consent, verbal or written, depending on the procedure. Yours needed verbal consent and an explanation if you’ve not had it done before.
Of course nurses have to learn and every procedure needs a ‘first time’, but again this should be under supervision.
Yes ECG leads notoriously tangle, but these should have been done before any undressing of you. Also there is no need to completely expose you, a towel over your hips gives you some dignity.
Her attitude to you was unacceptable and you saying you weren’t happy should have triggered a conversation to find out exactly why.
I am so sorry this happened to you.

Regardless of who funded your op, NHS or yourself, this was not the sort of treatment any patient should accept.
Trust if not already done so you will make your' treatment' known to those who matter.

Please report this !!

I agree with what others have said, that you should put in a complaint. Even if it brings no obvious result YOU will feel better for having spoken out, or you will be forever wishing you had.
Good luck with your recovery.

How awful for you. You should definitely complain or things will never change Dignity of the patient should be paramount.

Hi, I’m a Nurse (42 yrs experience) I’m sorry you experienced this and I think you should let the ward manager know about this so improvements can be made. I’m assuming the ECG was being done as a diagnostic tool because you felt unwell. However unless it was an emergency it would have been important to get you comfortable before starting the procedure, ie. Better position, something to help with the nausea (it wouldn’t have helped if you’d thrown up halfway through the ECG). Secondly the approach is always to ask your permission to do the ECG and explain why it’s necessary. Then ask if a student can do the procedure. Unfortunately ECG wires often get tangled, but if that was the case no attempt should be made to uncover you until that was sorted. ECG’s often do require you to remove your bra, but all this should be done keeping you as covered as possible with lots of reassurance. If they were going to chat about how to do the ECG that should have been done interacting you too. I always tell little stories about how awkward ECG’s have always been with them popping off etc. Basically anything to make the patient feel less embarrassed. Afterwards, you should have been thanked and made comfortable and warm. I do wonder what grade these ‘nurses’ were. I also understand that we all have to learn, but this shouldn’t mean that you have to experience unprofessional behaviour.

Not good enough! No procedure should be done without your permission and that includes having an observer.

When I was a student nurse, if, in an essay or orally, the words, “Tell the patient what you want to do and ask their permission” and “Draw the curtains for privacy.” were not included, a verbal rap on the knuckles and a low mark were given.

Yes you should complain you were in a very vulnerable position and had 2 nurses having an argument over something that clearly was their mistake
You should never have been treated like it

Oh my goodness, I am so sorry you were so badly treated this was is undignified patronizing and disgraceful. Yes you must report it. Things only get better with feedback and transparency.

My granddaughter is training to be a nurse and she says basically she is left to teach herself and is often left doing things she has never done before. However I know for a fact she would have been honest, Kind, gentle and treated you with mush more dignity and care, so that is no excuse for their attitude toward you. I think when she patted you and said I am professional you should have said shame you don’t act like one. (but I know that easy for me to say )

I hope you are feeling much better and that you do or have complained about this.

As everyone has said, the two nurses behaved quite unproffesionally and rudely.

If you have not already complained, or just need a little encourgement to believe that you have every right to do so, here is a description of how it should have been done.

I was having contrasting colour injected prior to a scanning and I don't live in the UK, but professional ettiquete should be the same (can't spell today, sorry).
The nurse tutor introduced herself to me by name and explained that she was a tutor and if I had no objection might nurse such a name who was in her last year of training carry out the procedure?
The student nurse was not present when I was asked for my permission. I agreed, the young woman came in, introduced herself to me, and explained the procedure she had to carry out ( a simple injection). She then asked me if I had taken any food within the last six hours, as the procedure required me to be fasting. I replied, that as I had left home before the stipulated time I had last eaten at 11 p.m the preceeding evening. She then explained she was to give me an injection in the crook of my elbow and asked which arm I preferred. Waited for the answer, disinfected the site, explaining what she was doing and remembered to say that I was welcome to look away if I wanted. After the injection she made sure I knew that I was to remain lying still for 20 minutes, and that when the time was up she, or another nurse, would come and tell me so, and that a nurse was outside the cubicle if I needed anything, so I was only to call. She finished by thanking me for allowing her to practise on me.

This is how it should be done. She made one very minor slip which the nurse tutor politely corrected and apologised for.

Your experience comes nothing near this standard of perfection, by this is what you had been entitled to experience.

Your nurse's final comment is offensive beyond belief.

Had you been told in advance that they might need an ECG after the operation as well as before? If not, they should definitely have told you why it had been ordered. "The doctors told us to do it" is just not good enough as an explanation.

Did either bother to ascertain that you were actually the patient they had been asked to treat?

Complain to the hospital PALS if they have one.

www.nhs.uk/service-search/other-services/Patient-advice-and-liaison-services-(PALS)/LocationSearch/363

Nurses like that should be fired.

I could fill up the whole thread with examples of terrible practice my daughter and my mum recieved.

Shinamae

Lucca

Poor you, that’s not acceptable.
As it happens I’ve just put the phone down on my surgery (normally very helpful) as I was about to either start crying or swear.

Ring up and asked to speak to the practice manager and complain

Well the “message” got through and someone else more sympathetic dealt with me.

Yes, complain. This is awful, insulting. Comfort and dignity have priority. This was disgraceful, unprofessional behaviour.