Sleepless toddler - family at end of tether

Nelliemoser Maybe our lives are more complicated than those of adult primates (and I am not sure that is really true) but do our babies?

I am following this thread with interest on behalf of my DD and 6month DGS.
I have just had a Skype conversation with them. DGS has not napped this afternoon and was whingy and rubbing his eyes but he will not settle down to doze off. I was dropping DD gentle hints, like "I think you might have to get tough and just put him down."
DD was saying "Oh but I couldn't let him cry for long." (She has never left him long enough to my mind!) Which will defeat any chance of getting it to work.

I do think this might be because he is a first baby. She is on maternity leave and had all the time she likes to cuddle him to sleep. I think though she does get a bit frustrated as she can do nothing when he only naps in her arms.

I can only keep dropping gentle hints. There was a conversation on woman's hour the other week about babies sleep and ?Jenny Murray and Dr Tanya Byron both agreed that they had been left to cry and that it had not harmed either of them psychologically.
All the stuff about primates not putting babies down alone in quite true but we have rather more complicated lives.

Thank you everyone and for pms - I have been firing ideas off to DD - even if none of them work I think she is benefiting from the fact that people take it seriously. Several of her friends have babies who sleep well and she feels a bit like a Bad Mother! Now she knows she is not!!

My friend's DIL was a great fan of co-sleeping and now her six year old and nine year old can't go to sleep unless someone is in the room with them at bedtime. One day they will have to learn to go to sleep by themselves - especially if they want to have sleepovers with friends etc so the earlier they can do that the better before the habit is totally ingrained. Having said that I understand that if you are not getting any sleep you will do anything. Don't they use sleep deprivation as torture in the military? Gosh mishap I am amazed you can keep going with all the anxiety you are currently facing. I want to say "it is not fair" but of course we grans are old enough to know that life isn't fair. Sending you (and your daughter) best wishes and . In fact maybe a large glass of wine before breast feeding might help - or is that sacrilege?

My cousin fed her son until he was about 5 and it was no problem for them - but she was the most laid back mum I have ever met. When he was about 3 he suddenly changed from hyper placid and became a very active little boy that climbed everything in sight. (gates, trees, the outside of bannisters etc)
The trick is balancing the needs of mum and baby. In the cave, bags there would have been lots of other people around to take turns. In nuclear family mum gets an awful lot of focussed demands.

Mishap I hope your DD and her little lad get things sorted soon. It's utterly miserable for both to be so short on sleep.
For my second son I did the sling-thing, and he was content and so was I. I'd learnt the hard way with my first son when I was full of oughts and shoulds. Two years of broken nights. It was a grim time.

Indeed, an active mind. I tell my DD he will probably be PM one day!

All good advice. Particularly about not napping in the day. However how do you stop them napping on car journeys
DGS1 is 4 next month, no longer naps during the day, but as soon as he's in the car that's it. Even on the 15 min journey to pre-school.

Fortunately he's good at going to bed. However he does wake at stupid o'clock even though he has a grow-clock.

Many years ago my mum was told that my brother didn't sleep because he had an active mind, and that it was a sign of intelligence !!
No comfort at the time

Thanks - all suggestions gratefully received!

Heres a couple of steps which you may find helpful

1. Dont let him sleep at all through the day keeping him active and awake
2. Try burn him out with exercise take him to the park or do an activity to wear him out
3. Keep his mealtimes regular to avoid spikes in his mood

Hope this helps

I am not bothered about the boob handling per se - I think it is natural and quite sweet really. He will grow out of it (or his primary teacher might get a surprise request!) The problem is that his need for this at night conflicts with my DD's dire need to get some sleep!

She has tried co-sleeping, but he is very restless and grabs at her boobs all night, which wakes her up.

There will be an answer I am sure - she is such a wonderful mum, but it is hard to function on no sleep.

absent it was my DH out in the night! He used to drive our elder DD round the Sth Circular to get her to sleep..as soon as she got inside she woke but I had had a bit of sleep and could sit and rock her whilst DH had a sleep. I remember crying in desperation and tiredness when DH crawled out of bed to go to work. I felt such a failure as a mum! I had not been able to establish breast feeding. With hindsight & better knowledge I think she may have had tongue tie as 2nd DD fed happily from day one!

I have every sympathy with parens of sleepless babies but it is something that can be overcome with supporrt and a concentrated commitment to change it! Trouble is you need to be feeling strong to do that!

I have known parents get up in the middle of the night and drive around for half an hour with the baby in the back of the car because "it's the only way to get him back to sleep". I always found that a quick comfort suck did the trick, which is fortunate as I don't have a driving licence. I'm not sure at what age "boob handling" becomes "hardly acceptable behaviour". I breastfed for two and a half years – obviously, for a large part of that time, it was just quick comfort sucking at bedtime, for example. I stopped on my birthday when I felt that I wanted to reclaim my body. No problem.

BTW, I did put mine down, but we never had serious sleep problems. I also used a sling a lot and 'wore' them on my back as they got bigger.

My DD had the same problem re baby following her around the bed in his sleep trying to 'latch on' She also co-slept and always carried him around it seemed natural to her and it is. She felt that she should go by her instincts and be 'baby led' I agree. I too demand fed (although it was frowned upon in the 70s) fed all of mine for at least 2 years, my youngest was over two when he stopped the bedtime comfort feed. She did not get much sleep at all for the first 2 years but he is now in his own bed and sleeps through the night. He stays here for sleepovers and is very content. It is hard work and she is expecting her second baby in July. I am not sure how she will be with this one. I can say though that her little boy is the happiest most content toddler I have ever met and I have met an awful lot of them.

No sure what the answer is for your daughter but it won't last forever. Does the little respond to her partner? could he take over getting him back to sleep? Sorry if this all hasn't been much help.

I think the "boob-handling" (how negative! it's a baby we're talking about here!) is a plea to be held. Given that we are primates and most primates except us do not put their babies down unless the baby wants to be put down, it really is normal behaviour on the part of the child. It's we adults who want to be 'abnormal'.

This showed up when GS2 was born in February. DD was advised to put him down between feeds, even when he was a day old. He wasn't comfortable lying on his back, but he was absolutely fine and didn't cry when held upright against someone's chest or in a sling. DD was torn between doing what she was advised and doing what came naturally, which was to carry him.

She said: I wouldn't put him down if I was living in a cave, would I?

When I spoke to zoologist DH about this, he said: She wouldn't put him down anywhere; primates carry their babies.

Succinct and to the point. The child's demands are perfectly normal. That's why I think co-sleeping might work.

At any rate, I hope the tired mother finds something that works very soon.

I do sympathise with anyone with those problems. I agree that weaning them off the boobs handling is good advice. It would hardly be acceptable behaviour as they get older. Of course some do allow breast feeding as comfort for years. Depends how you would feel about that. My own daughter never liked sleeping as a baby. I got very little advice so coped by either taking her into my bed or pulling on a string tied to her rocking cradle. Or walking the bedroom floor. When she was 18 months I had my next baby who slept like a log between feeds but daughter still had to be persuaded to stay in bed. 18 months later I had baby number 3 and trying to make her stop waking her siblings up was a constant battle. I insisted she stay in bed and play with something, and stop shouting for me, taking her back to bed if she came downstairs. My brother told me later than on occasions when he baby sat for me he just let her run around until she dropped, then carried her up to bed! Thankfully she seemed to grow out of it as she went to school, and started to sleep through the night.

I have no rose-tinted glasses about DS2. Whereas his brother was a perfect sleeper from the word go, he didn't give me a decent night's sleep until he was 4. And his younger DS has done the same for him!

I think we look back with rose-tinted glasses! I am sure that ours did some similar things. But the whole sleep thing was not a huge problem with the girls. I count myself lucky.

Oh dear, Mishap it really does come from all directions for you. Time you had time to worry about yourself.
My daughter is having similar problems. It seems every time they stand their ground their now 18 month old gets a cold or teeths and ends up in their bed every night. If it's not the 18 month old it's the 4 year old having a nightmare, sometimes both. They never seem to get a good night's sleep. It seems a common problem these days.
Was it like this with our children? I don't remember having so many problems. Perhaps the memory fades with the years!

Thanks for all the ideas - I am sure she will get there in the end. This is just a particularly difficult patch for her.

I didn't co-sleep, except for a little bit with DD3. It was really just a case of hauling her out of her carry cot into the bed for night feeds and falling asleep. Once I tried to turn over while she was still attached. Hoiked my nipple out and did turn and we all went back to sleep. But from twenty weeks to the day she slept twelve hours a night, unbroken, until she was about six years old.

But DD1 co-slept with GS1 until he was about two and a half or three. Nights were never noisy and she didn't seem to lack sleep. I think GS just didn't like being on his own, which is natural when you think about it, and he wasn't a deep sleeper. He's fine in his own bed now at three and a half and sleeps well.

It's just another option for a mum who needs her sleep, I feel. If he felt he wasn't going to be parted from her all the time, he'd probably grow out of needing her there, as GS did. She could also do this until she feels strong enough to tackle a tougher approach.

Just a thought. Good luck to her

Oh bless her. I have never heard of that particular one with breasts. Substitute noonoo /blanky
Poor love it must be very hard for her.

This little chap does not feed from the breast he just likes to stroke it (anyone's will do!) - my DD finishes up leaning over the cot for him to fondle her boobs.

I have sent her the link to the programme (for which lots of thanks) and I hope that she will take some of the advice there.

Basically there is an underlying emotional issue - conceiving him (and his sibling) was hard, the pregnancy was hard, the birth was hard. There will be no more children as it is too risky (and certainly not if the sleep problems mean she and her OH never finish up in bed together!). So he is the last child, much-wanted and achieved at enormous cost in so many ways. Leting go and being firm is hard, which is why I never press her on it and leave them to find their own way.

I hope that the link to the programme and the two gifts I have sent will give some advice and comfort and the knowledge that she is not alone.

Jess Your assessment fits my DGS as well. He is only 6months but he knows exactly where the store cupboard is.
He is just not yet physically adept at digging through his mums clothing to get to it.