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Health

Funding the NHS?

(230 Posts)
JessM Mon 31-Mar-14 13:40:02

Lord Warner has written a report that points out the if we want to have an effective NHS we are going to need to get more money for it.
He suggests various things including a £10 a month for using it and levies on gambling, alcohol, tobacco or sugar.
With some drastic cuts in the pipeline under "austerity" - how do you think the NHS can be funded in the face of increasing demand and increasing costs of the latest treatments.

Lilygran Sat 07-Jun-14 12:03:45

Apologies. Yes, of course there are people who are exempted who are still paying NI blush. I'm not sure how increasing NI would be any different from the way it works now, that is, that employed people are charged a tax which unemployed and retired people aren't. I wouldn't mind getting less pension or paying more income tax to keep the NHS afloat but I suspect that wouldn't be enough. suebailey1 you're quite right. And on top of this is the huge cost of paying interest on PFI buildings which the NHS will never own. Perhaps they could junk the new pointless railway scheme and start again with the NHS?

durhamjen Sat 07-Jun-14 13:30:55

nhap.us7.list-manage.com/track/click?u=937c3e62bc24fa37708920cc9&id=b781b376da&e=716bee6853

NHS not mentioned in the Queens Speech. Tories hiding what they want to do again.

AAAHappyMan Fri 13-Jun-14 23:22:36

durhamjen Fri 06-Jun-14 20:08:51

Many thanks for your link – I followed it and was shocked and horrified. For those who haven’t read the article, here are just a few of the items which set me back on my heels.
[It’s OUR=NHS, let’s keep it that way – OK ?]
A eulogy to the NHS: What happened to the world my generation built?
In 1926, Harry Leslie Smith's 10 year old sister died of TB in a workhouse infirmary, too poor for proper medical care. In 1948, the creation of the NHS put a stop to all that. In an extract from his new book, Harry's Last Stand, he describes his despair at the coalition's dismantling of the welfare state.
+ ....[The NHS] was a transformational shift in how we as a country viewed our fellow citizens. The creation of the NHS made us understand that we were in truth our brother's keeper.
+....The coalition government's Health and Social Care Act will create a two-tier health care system. This act will see the NHS stripped down like a derelict house is by criminals for copper wiring.
+....Ukip has even proposed that A&E patients should have the right to buy their way to the front of the queue,
+....[Before the NHS] ... if you were rich and insured you received timely medical treatment, while the rest of the country got the drippings.
-----
It’s OUR=NHS, let’s keep it that way – OK ?

durhamjen Fri 13-Jun-14 23:47:09

Just started reading the book today, AAAHappyMan.
My grandfather died because my grandmother could not afford medication for him, in 1939. He was a tailor and lost his business in the depression so she had to go back to teaching. Not often done in those days. She had to stop teaching in 1921 when she got married.
Lots of what he says resonates. One of my mother's cousins was a teacher in a workhouse in Yorkshire. It would have been interesting to talk to her, but she died when my mother was three.

Eloethan Sat 14-Jun-14 00:59:33

As others have said, the treatment of diabetes and complications relating to it, is a huge cost to the NHS.

Late onset diabetes and many other illnesses are related to diet and weight. If food and drink manufacturers were forced to cut the amount of sugar in their products, that should save quite a bit of money.

I read today that there are 13 teaspoonfuls of sugar in a can of Old Jamaica Ginger Beer - which I occasionally drink but I suppose I'd better not in future.

durhamjen Sat 14-Jun-14 01:13:01

Have you read about the link between statins and type 2 diabetes, Eloethan? I think it's 20% more likely. It makes me glad I got pains in my legs and gave up statins, although Atenolol, a Beta blocker I am on, has the same risk. At least I am only on one, not both, and I am going to discuss that with the specialist next month.

Eloethan Sat 14-Jun-14 01:49:14

I wasn't aware of the diabetes connection but I have heard that statins can cause all sorts of muscular problems that, if the medication is not discontinued, are irreversible.

I expect that you've heard of NICE's recommendation that people who are currently healthy but who carry, I think, a 10% risk of stroke should be given statins as a "precautionary measure". Quite a few respected medical experts have said that it is unacceptable to subject people to possible serious side effects on the basis that they may be at risk. They point to the fact that several members of the NICE board have links with pharmaceutical companies.

My mum used to be on Atenolol, largely as a precautionary measure - I didn't know it carried health risks - although I suppose all medication carries some risk. She's now on Amlodopine (I think that's what it's called). I wonder if that carries risks too. I'll have to check.

Aka Sat 14-Jun-14 07:53:08

Lilygran I think there is a cure on the horizon for type 1 diabetes so there is hope that your little granddaughter will not have to live her life dependant on insulin injections flowers
Type 2 is largely self inflicted avoidable, but before those who know someone with type 2 who has a BMI of less than 25, eats healthily and exercises regularly jump on me, I said 'largely', not wholly.

Eloethan Sat 14-Jun-14 10:45:07

Aka I imagine some sort of argument could be made that many ailments are "self-inflicted".

People should, of course, take responsibility for their own health as far as they can. But the food and drink industry also bears responsibility for heavily marketing food and drink which they are well aware is extremely unhealthy. Of course, they don't care as long as they can keep making more and more profit - and they are quite clever at getting round any guidelines that are put in place.

papaoscar Sat 14-Jun-14 12:15:43

Wise words, indeed, Aka. At the end of the day we are all responsible for what we eat, but the temptations to over-eat are enormous. This is not helped at all by the cosy relationship between governments and the food industry. They, jointly, bear a very heavy responsibility for many aspects of the nation's obesity and health problems. The food industry should be made to take a far more moral attitude to ingredients and promotion, and the government should be forcing appropriate legislation through Parliament and policing it vigorously.

AAAHappyMan Sat 14-Jun-14 21:20:26

durhamjen Sat 14-Jun-14 01:13:01
''Have you read about the link between statins and type 2 diabetes, Eloethan? I think it's 20% more likely''

Please can you supply the source [URL] for this, as I've searched high and low for this report?
Diabetes co uk reported that a major study in USA which involved ''.... 32,752 people who had taken statin-based cholesterol drugs, half who had high doses and the other half being given lower doses each day for around a five-year period.
More patients who took the higher doses of ... statins that use the liver to block the creation of cholesterol in the body, went on to develop diabetes than those who were given the lower doses .
However, it was recommended that the potential benefits from treating cholesterol disease with the drugs outweighed the risk of diabetes .''

Hardly the most rigorous set of findings I've read QED

gangy5 Sat 14-Jun-14 21:26:10

Eloethan I agree about the cutting down of sugar by food manufacturers - also fats and salt. It would cure alot of problems and is the only way to ensure results if this were to be done at source.
epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62209

AAAHappyMan Sat 14-Jun-14 21:37:06

Well written, gangy5. I remember the Tories promising that they would stop dead in its tracks the plans the then Labour Govt's had to abolish Self Regulation. The Conservatives kept their promise in favour of the continuation and strengthening of the Food & Drink's profit driven strangle hold on the market.

durhamjen Sun 15-Jun-14 00:20:28

ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A7x9Ukh.1pxTJDAAQpJ3Bwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybWdtbzZ2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2lyZAR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1402816254/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.webmd.com%2fcholesterol-management%2fnews%2f20130523%2fcould-statins-raise-diabetes-risk/RK=0/RS=KsokBBHTQRrOxAhPN5zNPXmwvX0-

I'll have to stop searching using Yahoo. The links are far too long.
For you, HappyMan.

It's also on Pulse Today, but only GPs can get to it now, it seems.

gangy5 Sun 15-Jun-14 14:49:56

Have clicked on the link but haven't got anywhere - perhaps I'm doing something wrong durhamjen

gangy5 Sun 15-Jun-14 15:04:04

For my sins - I have been a long term Tory voter - carried on from the parents' influence I suppose. Never again and especially after having had an appointment with my local (tory) MP yesterday evening.
Before going I did alot of research into how the country's health has suffered in past years owing to our increased bad diet and found, to my surprise that the labour government have done much more towards attempting to improve things. Here are the notes I made:-

THE FOOD MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY AND THE HEALTH OF THE NATION

In the late 1990’s alarm bells were rung with regard to the nation’s diet and what would be the resultant consequences. If effective steps had been taken then, the state of the country’s health would have been greatly improved by now.

From almost 2 decades ago, food industry practices have been challenged by the policy makers, the public and health professionals.

A Prime Minister’s official spokesman has recently said.” What we are doing is working with the industry. You have already seen commitments from retailers and manufacturers to reduce levels of salt, remove some artificial fats, reduce calorie content and improve labelling“. “Working with the industry” are the telling words. The government’s lax approach is due to ministers close links with the industry. The Food and Drink Federation, the industry lobby group, has had 16 meetings with ministers since the last election and 99 with government officials - looking after the interests of the food producers whom they represent. Groups calling for legislation on salt, sugar, unhealthy fats and misleading labels have had proportionately small meetings with any government officials!!

Another interesting quote from a Department of Health spokesman said “ Many manufacturers and retailers are already taking sugar, fat and salt out of products as a result of our Responsibility Deal, which is based on working collaboratively with the industry rather than imposing unrealistic targets“.

Government must cast aside it’s cosy relationship with the food industry for the sake of the nations health and the resultant costs involved. After allowing the industry to self regulate for so long it must now show some guts and legislate.

CURRENT STATISTICS

Obesity - which then goes on to cause type 2 diabetes, heart disease and some cancers is the cause of 10% of deaths per year and costs the NHS between 5 and 16 billion pounds a year. Two figures which I have seen in print.

In the past 2 decades the number of obese adults has almost doubled.
Not to be proud of - we are the ‘fattest’ nation in Europe!

A national survey found little change in eating habits between 2008 and 2012 with most people failing to meet any of the national guidelines on a healthy diet.

TIME-LINE OF EVENTS CONTRIBUTING TO DIET - ESPECIALLY IN CHILDREN

1970
Margaret Thatcher became Sec. of State for Education. The economic outlook was grim - cuts had to be made. Free milk was stopped for older children and the price of school meals was raised.

1979
Mrs. Thatcher became PM and abolished school milk altogether

1980
The 1980 Education Act abolished minimum nutritional standards in school meals.
The Tory government initiated competitive tendering for school meal services. Private companies took over and persuaded schools that a cafeteria system was best. This resulted in the supply of popular fast food items. Another downside to this was obvious - these companies would need to make a profit.

END OF THE 80’S
Home Economics was removed from the National Curriculum and playing fields sold off -resulting in a decrease in physical activity.
Academic subjects were the new mantra - to the detriment of ‘skills for life’ along with ensuring a future healthy nation.
This move has resulted in a whole generation not being able to cook and who rely largely on unhealthy ready meals.

1997
Labour came to power. National Heart Forum campaigned for an increase in fruit and vegetable consumption. Despite various initiatives, uptake of fruit and vegetables hasn’t reached a decent level.
Also in this year the Food Standards agency was initiated and were tasked with the Department of Health to conduct a survey of young peoples’ diet and nutrition. The report was published in 2000 and stated that children were eating too much junk food, less fruit and vegetables than ever before and not taking enough exercise. Children were eating mostly processed or convenience foods. 9 out of 10 children drank fizzy drinks. This ’junk’ diet contained excessive amounts of sugar

1999
David Blunkett issued a draft of new regulations - these aimed at ensuring children had a balanced diet. Tories didn’t like the proposals and said they were ‘nanny stateism’. Others thought the proposals didn’t go far enough

2000
The NHS opened it’s first clinic to deal with childhood obesity.

In this year much was said by various organisations regarding diet and the resultant dire consequences if we were to continue as before.

Nutritional standards for school meals - the first for 20 years - were eventually published in July 2000 and became compulsory in
April 2001

It is evident that New Labour did a fair bit in an effort to improve child nutrition but these initiatives have had little effect on childrens’ eating habits. The reason for this being that the governments efforts are being undermined with it’s own unwillingness to confront 2 big problems posed by the vested interests of the food industry - the advertising of junk food and promotional schemes, set up by food manufacturers, in schools.

WHY THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE

1.Food habits learned in early life persist for years
2.Pressure on working parents, changes in lifestyle, food advertising and lack of food education have led to a culture in which few families sit down together for traditional meals. Parents assume that children get a healthy meal at school.
3.There has to be a rise in the cost of ingredients for school meals to up the quality.
4.Consider the re-introduction of subsidies.
5.Eligibility for free meals should be widened and take up encouraged
6.Nutrition and food preparation must be made important elements of the National Curriculum.
7.Any promotions or sale of junk food in schools should be banned
8.Televising advertising of junk food to children must be banned.
(info from www.educationengland.org.uk )

The future health of the nation depends on implementing all of these points.

Kraft in the USA are involved in litigation, in connection with it’s foods causing unhealthy outcomes!! - it will arrive here.
END.

My parting point is this:- There was great trumpeting when cookery was made compulsory in schools. I believe that it is for 11-14 year olds. I have discovered that this involves only 6 lessons per year - half a term.

durhamjen Sun 15-Jun-14 15:08:10

See what you mean about the link, gangy. It was okay when I put it on, but I am denied now.
Here's another one which I hope will work.
www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/261021.php
If you look up statins articles on that website, you'll scare yourself silly.

durhamjen Sun 15-Jun-14 15:10:56

By the way, I was on Atorvastatin for six months last year but had too many side effects so stopped. When I asked my GP if he was going to put in a yellow card about it the response was we do not bother as too many people have side effects!

durhamjen Sun 15-Jun-14 15:35:00

Gangy, have you ever looked at the board for the FSA? One was the managing director of Bernard Matthews until 2010. Another was finance director for Premier Foods. Not exactly names you would think of when considering the health of the nation.

papaoscar Sun 15-Jun-14 16:10:57

Well researched, G5, you are spot on. The cosy relationship between the government and the food industry must be stopped for the good of the nation. Now.

durhamjen Sun 15-Jun-14 16:21:34

You start, papaoscar. There may already be a petition on www.change.org

durhamjen Sun 15-Jun-14 16:27:57

www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/uk-government-a-call-reduce-the-amount-of-sugar-and-tax-foods-with-excessive-fructose-and-sugar

This is one which should be a start.

Aka Sun 15-Jun-14 16:30:17

Yes, a good post G5.

And yes, Eloe many illnesses are 'self inflicted' - nice that we agree at last!

What I find sad, is that if people took more responsibility for their health, then the NHS would be better placed to help others. A young girl, who lives locally, with cerebral palsy has recently been refused an operation which could help her walk. It costs only £12,000. Put that against the £1,000,000 per hour that it costs the NHS to treat people with mainly type 2 diabetes. Shameful. T

durhamjen Sun 15-Jun-14 16:39:15

www.change.org/petitions/uk-health-department-stop-seeking-advice-from-junk-food-producers

This one is closed now, but only had 770 signatures which I find hard to believe. I would hope a similar one would get at least that just from Gransnet if they knew about it. If not, then maybe they are just not interested.

janeainsworth Sun 15-Jun-14 16:46:11

Aka Are you sure that the operation was refused on the grounds of financial cost alone?
There could have been, and probably was, a clinical reason. Cost/benefit is not measured only in terms of money, and if the operation cost only £12K, I doubt if it was in the case you refer to.
If the non-financial cost is going to be a year spent in plaster, in pain, and the benefit in terms of increased mobility is very small, and uncertain, it is possible to see why surgeons might have advised against it.