Is the Liverpool Plan just another name for euthanasia

The LCP is not euthanasia Ethel, which is illegal in this country.
Unless your friend is the lady's next of kin, the staff will not have discussed the treatment plan with her so I think you should reserve judgement.

Sorry just seen that she is next of kin. In that case she should discuss her concerns with the staff, but if the lady herself is mentally competent then she is capable of consenting to treatment herself.

I am aware that its illegal in the uk, however I wonder how many older people who have relatives to support them, might be put on this plan without their knowledge. If someone has their nourishment removed them this is starvation so to me its euthanasia by another name.

Both my mother and mother in law were put on the Liverpool Care Pathway as they were clearly reaching the end of their lives. We were consulted all the way. In both cases the Doctors and Nurses were absolutely punctilious in their adherence to the protocol. Sadly, both ladies were completely "out of it" and definitely on the way out. My MIL was basically comatose by that point. My mother unfortunately appeared to be in very great pain. She was lost to us. Kind and caring staff helped us as well as both ladies as the end drew near. I have nothing but praise for the clearly defined steps. Of course a lot depended on the staff involved. In both our cases they couldn't have been better. I wrote to the Director of Nursing at our local health board to say this at the time. The Liverpool Care pathway was getting a bashing in the media but I can only assume that it was not being explained and adhered to properly in other cases.

My husband died on the Liverpool care pathway, ethel. It's not sad, it's a very brave thing to do. He did not want to be fed artificially; he had cerebellar ataxia, which is a bit like motor neurone disease.
In the end he died from brain cancer. He decided he'd had enough, and stopped eating and drinking, with two doctors deciding he would not improve and agreeing that he was capable of deciding for himself.
He had pain relief available, but was not in pain for the first time in 15 years.

I do not understand how she can be on the plan any more, or without her consent. If she is in her right mind, she has to agree to stopping eating and drinking. However, GPs are supposed to have that conversation with people who they think might die within a year. Perhaps the aunt has agreed but does not want to upset her niece?

It's obviously a very difficult and painful time for relatives watching someone they love, and the LCP gives the patient some control over how they want to be cared for during the last weeks or days. We all want the best for the patient but it can conflict with what relatives think should be done, whether or not that is best for the person dying.
Your DH was a very courageous man durhamjen and by making his wishes clear it hopefully ensured that you had some quality time together at a very sad time. ((Hugs)) to anyone going through such a sad time x

I have nursed on a number of terminally ill patients with and without the LCP and managed and supervised nursing staff applying it- its far better with I feel. Everyone knows what is happening, patients and NOKs are fully consulted and involved and the patient is given the best possible care at all stages of their sadly deteriorating condition. Its crucial to get End of Life care right and there has to be structured and fully auditable way of doing that s that all staff involved follow the plan. The other thing is of course that a great deal of knowledge has been gained since the implementation of this plan and EOL care has improved dramatically. If it were me when the time comes I would rather have it than not. I do hope your Aunt has a peaceful and dignified end and that your friend is comforted by the good care she receives.

I think it falls on a fine line etheltbags1 and whether or not it drops to the euthanasia side depends on how it is carried out and the involvement of the patient or the person representing them. I must admit it causes me worries but I have a feeling that is more because of the way some hospitals administered it at one point by comparison to how it was dealt with in the hospice movement where, I believe, it started.

I guess if you are really very ill you would lose your appetite. I am sure they would give her drinks if she was thirsty. I should certainly hope so.

My mother who was 98 when she died was very frail at the end of her life. It was very obvious that she was dying. Our GP asked if I would like her to go onto the 'Liverpool Pathway'. I knew about this after my friend's father had been in the same situation so didn't hesitate to agree. It is essentially end of life care but every comfort is given and I felt sure that my mum would have preferred to go this way. She was made comfortable, hydrated and we stayed with her until the end. It just seemed to me to be more humane than battling with drugs etc when end of life has come and the strength to carry on isn't there.

When my mother got to 101 and became 'out of it' she was given water or her lips moistened but was not capable of eating. She became distressed when handled (very gently by lovely care staff) and was given a sedative and also a morphine patch to alleviate any pain. 4 days later my sister went in to find her dressed, in her chair, eating porridge and saying "I think I've been a bit poorly". The next day she was again 'out of it' and died peacefully a week later. We had been asked about end of life care a few months previously but cannot remember whether LCP was mentioned or not. Never-the-less the care was wonderful.

I was with my cousin during his last days in a hospice. The staff informed us that they were going to stop giving his medication for heart and other conditions but he was kept on a morphine pump for pain relief which was added to before they moved him for any procedure. We did not press him to take food but if he expressed an interest we gave a little soup and ice cream, at no point did the hospice suggest we did not offer food.

It's good to see so many positive experiences of end of life care. A close friend who knew he was dying, chose the LP . He died at home, with excellent care that relieved his pain and with his family around him. My mum in law received wonderful end of life care in a local nursing home.

Indeed Iam64- heart warming. Sounds to me that in most cases LP is used with dignity and care, and with the patients' best interest at heart. When the time comes, who'd want to keep going a few more days or weeks of agony and total loss of dignity.

I cant see any positive experiences at the end of life, someone you love is going. It has to be sad and hard for those left no matter how easy/painfree/peaceful they staff can make it. I agree with many though that being in hospital is no place to be dying, much better at home or in a special peaceful place that they love.

My lovely mum was put on the LCP without our knowledge she made the choice herself with her Doctors and insisted we where not told at the time.The care mum received was second to none and she was treated with dignity and respect she even helped herself to her favourite tipple a couple of times during those sad last few days.

great to hear she was able to make her own decision and that they respected her wishes not to share with relatives. Close relatives, especially adult children- often cannot understand that the patient's wishes are paramount and the only ones that count if compus mentis.

Why on earth do we need an end of life plan.
Cannot the staff just care for someone in a kind and compassionate way while being aware that they are dying and being aware of the patients last wishes. It is just common sense, do we get vacuous nurses saying, 'oh dear she is not going to die as shes not on the Liverpool plan'.
If you have a very ill person aged 80+ and the doctors know they are unlikely to recover then they should be treated with respect and perhaps given a little indulgence perhaps let them eat a special treat etc and just let them slip gently away.
My gran was in this situation and we nursed her at home and nothing special changed, she demanded what she wanted, everyone ran to her bidding and one day she just fell asleep, no nurses or doctors had been for a couple of weeks but she died just as she probably wanted.

good morning etheltbags1 - good to see you're winding us all up again

etheltbags the LCP is just formalising the steps that need to be taken to ensure as painfree and comfortable a slipping away as possible. I'm sure that up until the steps were clarified in the LCP various ad hoc approaches were in place. These may or may not have been very good and depended on the people doing the caring. Sadly not all deaths are peaceful or pain free. Iam64 I don't think ethel is winding us up. Why would you think so?

Have you read any of ethel's other threads, jane10?
I agree with iam64

Yes I have! I really think this is an honest enquiry and is not unreasonable from someone who may be relatively unfamiliar with the topic. I suppose you only really learn about it when directly confronted. LCP must seem scary to some

One reason the LCP came into being was that many older people did not recognise that they were dying. It was a way of getting to know their wishes, and a way of checking on the care the dying person received.
Nothing wrong with your way, ethel, but it does not sound as if you particularly cared for your gran, saying everyone ran to her bidding. You make her sound quite cantankerous.
My husband would not have fitted your plan. He was only 65.

For the record, I agree with iam64 as well.

Also, I did not think the LCP existed any more, because of all the controversy.

ethel I agree with Iam4 so I will respond to that. It sounds to me that you know nothing at all about the complexity of serious ill health, modern nursing and medical care and despite all the helpful an informative answers here your mind remains closed.