Releasing people from hospital into care homes

If there weren't enough tests as MH tells us and the hospitals were close to collapse maybe the govt should have given them an alternative.

I couldn't understand why people who were well enough to be released from hospital couldn't have gone into quarantine. There were hotels lying empty all round the country, hospitality staff on furlough so why not use them? A small number of medical professionals overseeing the whole thing and homes would have been safe.

I suppose as Minister for Health, the buck stops with him. Nobody seems to have joined the dots when it came to sending people back into care homes. We now know what a catastrophe that was. I just hope that everyone who takes part in any investigations and inquiries concerning the pandemic are open and honest. Yes, mistakes have been made. We were dealing with an unprecedented situation but lessons need to be learned for the future. When the decision makers come out and say that tens of thousands died unnecessarily, it must be heart-breaking to those who lost a loved one.

Very difficult situation. The testing capacity was lacking in those early stages, while at the same time hospitals were under great pressure to admit sick covid patients - which meant that beds were at a premium, so discharging recovering patients was a choice. Decisions had to be made fast and of course some were unwise. Hindsight is helpful for the future but blame is a dodgy concept.

I’m not sure when tests were readily available, does anyone know? My mum was discharged from hospital four or five weeks into the first lockdown and she certainly had a test before the home accepted her and then she had two weeks in isolation at the home.

Doctors on the front line had no choice Liz46. The instruction was to discharge to create more room for the patients who were flooding in at the front end of the hospital system. The patients who went to care homes weren’t fit for hotel quarantine, most of them needed full nursing care so the only available option was to return them to the homes they lived in. People who were symptomatic weren’t discharged, but many had been infected already. The care homes had inadequate PPE didn’t isolate people on discharge from hospital initially, and didn’t segregate staff who also inadvertently became infected and passed it on to others. It was a tragic situation.

In the beginning the tests were used for patients being admitted to the general hospitals so that they were placed on a ward with other people with COVID, and underwent the treatments or not as appropriate. The testing capacity was limited (remember all the problems with insufficient laboratory capacity to carry out tests), so hospitals had to make very difficult decisions. Sufficient testing capacity wasn’t available until about June I think.

Let's hope there is a sensible enquiry with a view to learning for the future rather than heaping blame on people who were doing their best in a very difficult situation.

Casdon, you just reminded me of a recent conversation with a neighbour who has to free up beds in psychiatric wards. He has the difficult job of choosing who can go and dreads ending up in court being blamed for releasing someone who then does something awful. He is taking early retirement because of the stress.

This whole debacle is illustrative of the Government's total lack of understanding of how the Care sector works.

It is currently operated at arms length, by the private sector on a piecemeal basis, with different care homes doing different things at all levels. Hence some are excellent, others not so.

Which is why it all needs a complete overhaul and closer alignment with the NHS. And HMG has yet again kicked a review into the long grass.

You have to wonder whether some people with 'the right connections' are making a great deal of money out of the current social care system...

This is down to nursing staff, not the government or Matt Hancock.
People now are looking for blame !

How on earth is it down to nursing staff? If you mean a lack of them then the buck still stops with Matt Hancock and the government.

It's worth clarifying that Matt Hancock is being accused of lying. That should be provable or not.

What a difficult situation it was. Not enough tests or PPE and probably some lack of understanding about Covid and how it spreads. Of course Matt Hancock must bear responsibility as he was in charge, but the situation was difficult. I don’t think the patients could have gone into hotels to quarantine because they were old and required nursing care although not medical care. The care homes probably had insufficient PPE and the staff perhaps a lack of understanding or ability to quarantine the patients.

It’s not down to nursing staff EllanVannin, and it’s unfair to blame them. An instruction was given that patients had to be discharged if they were medically fit, without COVID testing being available.

Failing to ensure that those going into care homes were covid-free was a major blunder. Once that ball started rolling there was no way back.

In Scotland people were knowingly released into care homes with a covid diagnosis. Big scandal up here.

maddyone

What a difficult situation it was. Not enough tests or PPE and probably some lack of understanding about Covid and how it spreads. Of course Matt Hancock must bear responsibility as he was in charge, but the situation was difficult. I don’t think the patients could have gone into hotels to quarantine because they were old and required nursing care although not medical care. The care homes probably had insufficient PPE and the staff perhaps a lack of understanding or ability to quarantine the patients.

Not everyone in care homes needs, or gets, nursing care. I work in a care home and we have no nurses and our residents would have managed in quarantine the same as they did in the home when a hospital visit resulted in an outbreak. The only difference would be in a hotel they would have ensuites which not all our residents do so our quarantining of residents was clearly not 100% and couldn't possibly be which is why it spread. Fortunately no deaths.

Our understanding was fine thank you, we just weren't prepared to deny residents access to a bathroom for 2 weeks.

Casdon

Doctors on the front line had no choice Liz46. The instruction was to discharge to create more room for the patients who were flooding in at the front end of the hospital system. The patients who went to care homes weren’t fit for hotel quarantine, most of them needed full nursing care so the only available option was to return them to the homes they lived in. People who were symptomatic weren’t discharged, but many had been infected already. The care homes had inadequate PPE didn’t isolate people on discharge from hospital initially, and didn’t segregate staff who also inadvertently became infected and passed it on to others. It was a tragic situation.

Full nursing care isn't provided in many, probably most, care homes. For people who needed nursing care then suitable quarantine could have been organised but of course it is easier to just let the elderly die and blame care workers.

AcornFairy

Very difficult situation. The testing capacity was lacking in those early stages, while at the same time hospitals were under great pressure to admit sick covid patients - which meant that beds were at a premium, so discharging recovering patients was a choice. Decisions had to be made fast and of course some were unwise. Hindsight is helpful for the future but blame is a dodgy concept.

I'm fed up hearing about hindsight. I was having conversations about why weren't they setting up suitable quarantine for discharged patients over a year ago. Maybe I should have Matt Hancock's job.

Liz46

Let's hope there is a sensible enquiry with a view to learning for the future rather than heaping blame on people who were doing their best in a very difficult situation.

Casdon, you just reminded me of a recent conversation with a neighbour who has to free up beds in psychiatric wards. He has the difficult job of choosing who can go and dreads ending up in court being blamed for releasing someone who then does something awful. He is taking early retirement because of the stress.

Isn’t this all down to care in the community.which basically meant throwing psychiatric patients out into the street and not actually caring for them at all. Not the fault of your neighbour but if whoever thought care in the community was a good idea.

Sarnia

I suppose as Minister for Health, the buck stops with him. Nobody seems to have joined the dots when it came to sending people back into care homes. We now know what a catastrophe that was. I just hope that everyone who takes part in any investigations and inquiries concerning the pandemic are open and honest. Yes, mistakes have been made. We were dealing with an unprecedented situation but lessons need to be learned for the future. When the decision makers come out and say that tens of thousands died unnecessarily, it must be heart-breaking to those who lost a loved one.

I completely agree with this Sarnia

Thank you for explaining the situation as it was in your care home theworriedwell. Possibly not all care homes were in the same situation as yours. I appreciate that not all care home residents require nursing, but many do, especially when recently discharged from hospital having been ill. We cannot generalise as there are many care homes across the country and from news reports at the time, it appears that they all coped differently. Some were lucky in that their preventative measures kept their homes free of Covid whilst others, despite everything they did, found that Covid got into their home, with various results.

I’m pleased to hear that there were no deaths in your care home.

Blinko

This whole debacle is illustrative of the Government's total lack of understanding of how the Care sector works.

It is currently operated at arms length, by the private sector on a piecemeal basis, with different care homes doing different things at all levels. Hence some are excellent, others not so.

Which is why it all needs a complete overhaul and closer alignment with the NHS. And HMG has yet again kicked a review into the long grass.

You have to wonder whether some people with 'the right connections' are making a great deal of money out of the current social care system...

I completely agree with this also. Some care companies seem to use an interpretation of the law in which suits them too ime and that definitely got worse during the pandemic

Can I just make the point too that it wasn't just care homes for the elderly that were affected. It also affected home for those with varying disabilities and advice to those homes was completely over looked too, even months into the pandemic

At the very beginning of this we had people discharged from hospital into our care home without being tested, consequently most of the staff and the residents got Covid and some residents died and some staff were very very ill. Personally I have had Covid twice now but with no symptoms ,I do think now I am suffering with long Covid as I’ve got very achy legs and I am very tired most of the time but I am still going to work.... for Hancock to say that care homes were ring fenced makes me sick