Gransnet forums

Health

Is Gender Critical the new Pro Life?

(752 Posts)
GagaJo Fri 12-Nov-21 16:55:32

I was musing this while playing lego with DGS this afternoon.

Pro life individuals claim to be anti abortion because they want to protect the life of the unborn baby, but resent public spending on the baby once it is born. They're judgemental about single-parents. In the US, they want to deny access to free contraception to women, BUT refuse to hold men accountable for paying child support. Doesn't sound very pro anything to me.

Gender critical individuals claim to 'follow the science' but then refuse to accept any science that shows that human and animal life forms are born in categories other than just male and female. They're critical of other cultures that have accepted alternative gender expressions beyond the binary. While claiming not to be totally anti trans, they want to shut off any access to support or treatment (the hooha about the Tavistock Clinic and Kiera Bell) at a point in a young person's life where it could help them avoid developing the unwanted sexual characteristics of the gender they want to transition from. After all that, they will only accept trans individuals who are 100% post surgery, despite not wanting those individuals to be able to access surgery, hormones or treatment. They also deny the evidence and existence of these individuals historically, prefering to see the visibility of trans as a patriarchal plot to deny cis women their rights.

I'm sceptical. It is a 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' position for trans individuals within the eyes of the gender critical, in my opinion.

Let the battle commence.

Disclaimer
I am a life-long feminist.
I will not be responding to demands and insistence for answers.
I will, however, enter into polite discussion.

Rosie51 Thu 18-Nov-21 18:54:30

VS if you work with children with autism (for most the preferred descriptor, person before qualifier, the same as person of colour not coloured person) then you will know that it is a wide spectrum, and any additional learning difficulties are on a wide spectrum. There will be many, many children who would struggle in the 'Alex' situation, and I know my grandson would. That would be despite the right support at home. Do you work in a special school for children with complex needs, because SEN in mainstream schools is totally different to SEN in a dedicated school?

Mollygo Thu 18-Nov-21 18:40:40

Yes GJ that’s what I’m saying. Very perceptive of you.

Doodledog Thu 18-Nov-21 18:36:31

Well, much as you are all-knowing, trisher. I'd prefer to take the work of practising solicitors and barristers that the scenarios are not fanciful.

Humour me, now you're here? You mentioned 'gender signals' earlier - I'm still confused about what they are. Can you help me out please?

trisher Thu 18-Nov-21 18:30:42

WellI've looked at two of those scenarios.
The teaching one is virtually impossible. As an autistic child Alex woud be subject to an IEP, this would look at what he was able to do, what aims his education should have and how this would be achieved. So the school would include in this his problems with the teacher's title and work towards a solution. If they were not doing so the parents would have substantially more grounds for complaint than any trans issue.

Police recommendations on searching anyone are based on sex and not on gender. They clearly state
“Any search involving the removal of more than an outer coat, jacket, gloves, headgear or footwear, or any other item concealing identity, may only be made by an officer of the same sex as the person searched and may not be made in the presence of anyone of the opposite sex unless the person being searched specifically requests it.”
y-stop.org/news/can-male-officer-search-female

I'm afraid with two such wopping inaccuracies I'm not going to take the rest of them seriously

GagaJo Thu 18-Nov-21 18:27:16

Mollygo

GagaJo

Because it's progress. It moves forwards inexorably.

So eventually you’ll recognise the truth that TWANW. That would be real progress for you, but I doubt I’ll see it in my lifetime.
You do realise that all the pontificating you do is doing more harm than good to those trans-people who just wish to live without making hue and cry about it?
No, I don’t suppose we will see that progress from you either.

So in a thread where you have said four times the amount I have, I am the one pontificating?

Incredible.

VioletSky Thu 18-Nov-21 18:20:40

Doodledog

I have never followed or supported Stonewall... I don't follow or support any one group, I read whatever is current and make my own mind up

I've always recognised issues over women's safety and have never advocated for taking it away.

My daughter is autistic, I am very educated and I also work with children with SEN. I truly believe that most autistic children could understand that concept with the right support. This would both need to be at home and at school.

Mollygo Thu 18-Nov-21 17:51:32

Thank you for that post and the link Doodledog.
It was well worth the long read, but frightening how many opportunities for the trans rights to be imposed over those of natal women can arise in circumstances where it is damaging to females and should not be allowed to happen.

Doodledog Thu 18-Nov-21 17:13:34

Yes, Alex's case was troubling, and i can see how a child with Autism would struggle.

They are all complicated cases, but the case of the trans-identifying police officer who was told that it was ok to search a woman prisoner stood out to me. The situation must have been awful for the woman, but the police officer was put in an impossible position too.

Rosie51 Thu 18-Nov-21 17:06:17

Thanks for that link Doodledog a very interesting read. I've bookmarked the site for further perusal.

It's obvious that Stonewall prioritise trans rights above all others. What I find especially frightening is that the example given of 'Alex' could so easily be my grandson with autism and learning difficulties. He would really struggle sad

Doodledog Thu 18-Nov-21 16:59:08

VioletSky

Did ya have to tag me in it?

I promise I will look later but Ive got some meeting prep to do atm

It's not Facebook?.

If there's a reason why I shouldn't, let me know and I won't do it again, but I was just responding to your post about employers and legal responsibilities. Sorry if copying in your post to make that clear has compromised you in some way, but I didn't mean to do that.

Galaxy Thu 18-Nov-21 16:57:12

Eh?

VioletSky Thu 18-Nov-21 16:53:38

Did ya have to tag me in it?

I promise I will look later but Ive got some meeting prep to do atm

Doodledog Thu 18-Nov-21 16:38:29

VioletSky

Obviously many employers now do have inclusive policies so violating them results in job loss. They are right to do so and the employee must blame themselves.

Which is, of course, why Stonewall has been so keen to impose its agenda on the workplace. It's not always straightforward, though.

Those of you with an adult attention span can read on. Put the kettle on first - it's a bit of a marathon, but throws up some interesting legal dilemmas. This link will take you to the whole article and the Legal Feminist site, which has other interesting discussions on the subject:

There are real dangers for organisations in signing up to any equality and diversity quality-marking scheme that focuses exclusively on one or a small number of protected characteristics. Some of the following possible scenarios are grave in the extreme, but none of them is fanciful:

A swimming pool opens its women-only sessions to trans-identifying males on the basis of self-identification. A Muslim woman who had been a regular attender gives up swimming, and sues for indirect discrimination on grounds of sex and/or religion.

A charitable trust set up to fund sports scholarships for women decides that its scholarships are to be open to “anyone who identifies as a woman.” A trans-identifying male wins the qualifying competition for a triathlon scholarship, and is awarded £6,000 a year for the duration of a three-year undergraduate degree. The runner up sues for indirect discrimination on grounds of sex.

A local authority provides care at home, including intimate care, for a severely disabled girl. They have always sent a female carer. They write to the child’s parents to tell them that they have a new carer on their books. Lynette/ David is non-binary, and sometimes attends work as a man, sometimes as a woman. Lynette will from time to time be attending to their daughter, although David won’t. The parents object, saying that they want a female carer, and they do not accept that Lynette/David is female even on Lynette days. The local authority tells the parents that rejecting Lynette is transphobic, and if they insist on doing so the care package will be withdrawn. The parents apply for judicial review of that decision.

A woman attends a health centre for a gynaecological procedure. She has asked to see a female doctor. She sees a doctor who is a trans-identifying male who does not have a GRC. The NHS Trust’s policy is to treat trans-identifying males as women for all purposes, and it considers that the doctor’s gender reassignment is a private matter which patients have no right to know about, so the patient is not told that the doctor is a trans-identifying male. The patient is initially confused by the doctor’s appearance, but too embarrassed to say anything. Part way through the procedure, she becomes convinced that the doctor is physiologically male, but by this point she is frozen with embarrassment and continues to submit to the procedure anyway. She later complains to the police that she has suffered a sexual assault.

Maria is a social worker employed by a local authority that has committed itself wholeheartedly and visibly to the Stonewall schemes, with allyship training, rainbow lanyards, a procurement policy, active social media accounts, and a commitment to buy-in at all levels of the organisation. Maria’s caseload includes 3 girls in their early teens who have recently started to say that they identify as boys. One of them has asked her about how she can get ‘top surgery,’ and another has recently started binding. Maria’s managers tell her that she should refer these children to a local charity for trans youth. Maria looks into the charity, and is horrified by its ‘only affirm’ approach and its record of encouraging young people to transition. She asks her managers for guidance about alternative sources of support for these children which may explore with them the reasons for their sudden identification as trans, and whether it is possible to resolve their dysphoria or come to terms with their bodies as they are. Maria is disciplined for transphobia and for promoting conversion therapy. She brings a whistle-blowing claim against her employer.

A firm of solicitors adopts writes the Stonewall definition of transphobia into its policies, and in its effort to rise up the Stonewall league table, it sets up a working group to draft a response to a government consultation on reform of the GRA. A female solicitor co-opted onto that working group raises a concerns that self-identification would undermine women’s rights, in the course of which she points out that a GRC doesn’t actually change a person’s sex: it only creates a legal fiction to that effect. A trans colleague complains, and the solicitor is put through a disciplinary procedure on a charge of gross misconduct in the form of harassing her colleague by expressing transphobic views. The disciplinary hearing exonerates her, but the process causes her to take time off work with stress and anxiety. She complains to an employment tribunal of direct discrimination on grounds of her gender critical beliefs, and indirect sex discrimination.

Alex, a child with autism and learning disabilities, is being educated at a mainstream school where children routinely call their teachers “Sir” or “Miss.” His class teacher transitions during the course of the school year, leaving at the end of the autumn term as Mr Hawthorn and returning at the beginning of the spring term as Miss Hawthorn. Alex can’t understand the transition, and continues to call Ms Hawthorn “Sir.” He becomes confused and distressed when told that he must now say “Miss.” The school insists, and Alex’s distress increases until he starts refusing to go to school. Alex sues (through his parents) for disability discrimination.

An NHS trust that provides mental health services for children and young people operates an “only affirm” policy in relation to young patients presenting with gender dysphoria. A young female patient is referred, manifesting extreme distress and insisting that she is really a boy and she wants hormonal and surgical transition as soon as possible. Clinicians affirm her gender identity without exploring the possibility of other causes for her distress, and put her on puberty blockers and later testosterone. Soon after she turns 18, she undergoes a double mastectomy. The transition fails to relieve her distress. A few years later, she comes to understand that her belief that she was trans was a response to childhood trauma, unexplored at the time. She detransitions and sues the trust for negligence.
A police officer who is a trans-identifying male is permitted to carry out a full search of a female detainee, which the detainee experiences as a terrifying and humiliating sexual assault. The police officer is prosecuted; superior officers face disciplinary charges; and the force faces a civil claim for breach of the detainee’s Article 3 right not to suffer humiliating or degrading treatment.

A rapist and murderer is convicted and sentenced to a term of imprisonment. He has no medical history of gender dysphoria, although he has been an occasional cross-dresser for some years. After he has been sentenced, he says that he now identifies as female. He doesn’t seek medical treatment, but he does require to be provided with wigs, female clothing, and make-up. He is housed in a women’s prison where he rapes a female inmate. The victim brings judicial review and negligence claims against the prison.

Rugby is played at a mixed school, with separate boys’ and girls’ teams and matches. Chris, a 17-year-old trans-identifying male wants to join the girls’ First Fifteen. Chris plays “tight head prop,” a position in the front row of the scrum. Parents of several girls in the team write to the school to object, saying that they fear for the safety of team-mates and opponents, and drawing the school’s attention to the evidence that was considered by World Rugby in its 2020 process about trans inclusion. The school disagrees, and allows Chris to play in a school match between the girls’ First and Second Fifteens. A girl playing opposite Chris has her neck broken in a scrum, and dies. The school is prosecuted for corporate manslaughter.

Galaxy Thu 18-Nov-21 16:31:49

It's always funny when that's said. It's like yep that's what we are asking for. If you need to put a name in front of woman to do that then I will suck it up.
I havent followed it all, the last thing I saw was that the case had been suspended because he had sent all the information to Vice. He is the gift that keeps on giving.
I also am hypocritical in that I am beginning to think that the only way for women to make progress is to use the law. Someone much braver than me needs to take legal action with regard to the far right funding stuff, in the same way Julie Bindel took action against Pink News for their 'reporting'

Rosie51 Thu 18-Nov-21 16:16:26

Galaxy

I am probably a bit of a hypocrite as I have found the Adrian Harrop tribunal endlessly fascinating. But even though I think he is a grade a misogynist I am still a bit uneasy.

I've found it a bit hard to follow at times, although I really admire the live tweeters, but I'm of the opinion the tears now are his desperate attempt to save himself from a suspension. The interview he just gave to Vice showed none of this new contrite Harrop.
Have you seen the tweets he did that cis women should have to have separate toilets etc because they're such a danger to transwomen? I don't think he realised many would be only too happy to have such separate facilities grin

VioletSky Thu 18-Nov-21 16:04:33

It's not OK to make personal attacks or use people's personal information against them etc.

Violating work policies, oaths, anything of the kind... losing your job is a possible outcome.

For anyone.

Galaxy Thu 18-Nov-21 15:53:30

I am probably a bit of a hypocrite as I have found the Adrian Harrop tribunal endlessly fascinating. But even though I think he is a grade a misogynist I am still a bit uneasy.

VioletSky Thu 18-Nov-21 15:45:22

Obviously many employers now do have inclusive policies so violating them results in job loss. They are right to do so and the employee must blame themselves.

VioletSky Thu 18-Nov-21 15:39:48

I've been around a long time and I've definitely seen overall improvement. Maybe that depends on the circles people move in

Galaxy Thu 18-Nov-21 15:38:38

Oh and for a very long time I was an employer, so should I have got to decide that anyone who uses the word terf gets to lose their job. It's ok if the people you agree with have that level of control but unfortunately you cant guarantee that.

Galaxy Thu 18-Nov-21 15:35:36

Again not reassuring at all. Have you met some employers shock

VioletSky Thu 18-Nov-21 15:34:33

Galaxy

I dont think that achieves a great deal to be honest, and I am not sure what you are describing is progress. The last people I want deciding who will lose their jobs or homes are the owners of online platforms.

No it's employers, people forget that their employers may not want someone with negative views representing them.

Galaxy Thu 18-Nov-21 15:31:20

I dont think that achieves a great deal to be honest, and I am not sure what you are describing is progress. The last people I want deciding who will lose their jobs or homes are the owners of online platforms.

VioletSky Thu 18-Nov-21 15:31:15

Doodledog

*I think it's very interesting that I am somehow a bad person over my use of language.*

No, that's not the case at all.

Glad that's sorted out

Doodledog Thu 18-Nov-21 15:26:30

I think it's very interesting that I am somehow a bad person over my use of language.

No, that's not the case at all.