Is Gender Critical the new Pro Life?

GagaJo, you accused me (and others) of bigotry a few posts upthread because we said - in response to a direct question from you - that we know we are women because we are adult human females.

That is an insulting thing to say, so I assume that you are willing to explain your reasons for the accusation?

What is bigoted about saying that a woman is an adult human female? How would you answer your own question (which was ‘ How do you know you are a woman?’).

This question is the very crux of the difference in our respective points of view, and several of us have answered from our perspective. Rather than just accusing us of bigotry, or using playground jibes such as ‘ Who made you God?’, it would be really helpful if you could return the courtesy and give us your own point of view.

What is a "post sex"society?

So am I in my life expected to approach people and ask "Excuse me but are you an adult human female?" And if they answer "yes" do I believe them or ask for their birth certificate? Oh but if they have transitioned that won't be right will it? So how do I judge?
All "gender critical" feminists are doing is imposing restrictions on women, because the only way to judge is by appearance so effectively they are bringing back standards which were rejected years ago.

I have another parallel between pro-life and gender-critical, both seek entirely impossible aims. Women will always have abortions and transpeople have always been with us.

Doodledog, don't bother with the demands. Never gonna happen.

This is getting more surreal by the day.

This is, in your own words, ‘a debate’.

You ask me a question by name. I answer it. That is ok.

I as you the very same question, but that is somehow ‘a demand’ and you refuse.

Would you please explain how this works, if you aren’t unable to answer the more difficult question? You can pretend it’s a mixed-ability paper if that helps you to get in the zone.

BTW, no offense taken at being called grumpy. I am!

Quite aware of the mixed ability DD. But in case you hadn't noticed, it's not an exam, it's a voluntary contribution forum.

Is it where humans cease to exist because actually sex is means by which the human race propagates ?

Maybe all human life is just formed in a lab

clones?

GagaJo

BTW, no offense taken at being called grumpy. I am!

Quite aware of the mixed ability DD. But in case you hadn't noticed, it's not an exam, it's a voluntary contribution forum.

Yeah, but that only works when both ‘sides’ volunteer to contribute. It gets a bit echo-chambers otherwise, and you don’t like that, do you?

questions. A vital part of debate.

trisher

So am I in my life expected to approach people and ask "Excuse me but are you an adult human female?" And if they answer "yes" do I believe them or ask for their birth certificate? Oh but if they have transitioned that won't be right will it? So how do I judge?
All "gender critical" feminists are doing is imposing restrictions on women, because the only way to judge is by appearance so effectively they are bringing back standards which were rejected years ago.

I have another parallel between pro-life and gender-critical, both seek entirely impossible aims. Women will always have abortions and transpeople have always been with us.

Why on earth would you be expected to police anything? In what scenario do you see that as remotely likely?

The restrictions on women come when we can’t feel safe in a hospital ward (or a prison cell, for those of us who break the law), when we or our granddaughters find that we have been denied the right to give informed consent before agreeing to an intimate examination by a member of the opposite sex, and when we find that we no longer understand our own language (or the language of the country where we live). Not to mention the restrictions that may arise from inaccurate data being used in research that was meant to investigate differences between the life- chances of the sexes.

And these restrictions are being imposed by people who can’t even define the thing that they ar defending the right of others to become. A woman. Or a man.

However Doodledog, some on here are still insisting on policing languge. Deciding who can and who can't call themselves a woman, without the prefix of 'trans'.

Language creates our reality. Hence the binary of man/woman or male/female are so constrictive. Many exist outside of that binary.

Doodledog do you never tire of repeating the same things? Which have been dealt with so many times.
I really can't go into all of those things again. But I will repeat The law protects women's spaces it is not the fault of transpeople if the law is not applied.
But I will ask again. If not by appearance how do I judge who is a woman (or an adult human female)? And if it doesn't matter why on earth can't a transwoman be a woman?

Language reflects our reality. Hence the binary of man/woman. which is why it's important to conflate sex and gender. .isn't it

Okay, I've abandoned the idea of discussion as have you, GagaJo.

Here's an entertaining 4.5 mins clip from TV programme The Good Doctor :

youtu.be/1virYfYQtQY

The law protects many things.....it protects property but it can still get stolen

This discussion is not about womens spaces Doodledog. If that is what you want to discuss, either go to another thread or address those that will answer it for you.

No, GM. Because those terms do not fit everyone. Because as some continue to insist, only those born with a vagina/womb can be a woman.

The law protects women's spaces it is not the fault of transpeople if the law is not applied.

But it is the fault of transgressors if they flout the law by entering single sex places that don't align with their sex. You might as well say it isn't the fault of burglars if they fail to be caught, doesn't excuse their lawbreaking. If a woman has asked for a female medical practitioner, then it most definitely the fault of any transwoman who fails to respect this request.

A meeting will be held in the House of Lords this afternoon, at 14.30, to discuss the housing of female transgender prisoners ahead of a debate this week. It will be heard under the Legislation: Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill.

Transgender prisoners who identify as female and have been convicted of sexual offences should be housed in male estates, peers have urged as they call for a change in the law.

The attached is the proposals from Lord Blencathra. A step in the right direction.

People who think sex isnt binary are more likely to be shoplifters than those who believe in the existence of sex. I dont want anyone to ask me questions about this 'fact' or debate this assertion because that's patriarchal or something.

trisher

So am I in my life expected to approach people and ask "Excuse me but are you an adult human female?" And if they answer "yes" do I believe them or ask for their birth certificate? Oh but if they have transitioned that won't be right will it? So how do I judge?
All "gender critical" feminists are doing is imposing restrictions on women, because the only way to judge is by appearance so effectively they are bringing back standards which were rejected years ago.

I have another parallel between pro-life and gender-critical, both seek entirely impossible aims. Women will always have abortions and transpeople have always been with us.

trisher, who expects you to approach people and ask the questions you mention? What a weird world you live in. If I am in a situation that requires it, I approach people and say, “Hi how are you?” Or Hi, I’m Molly, and you are? That applies even if they’re tall, strong, muscular and I’ve heard their deep voice.
If I am in a situation where an obvious man is in a women’s safe space there’d be no point in asking it either. The person would probably get violent or do what you do and cite bigotry and transphobia.
Feminists have the interests of adult human females in mind. GC feminists have science to back up their POV.
Some or any number of feminists evidently think males can become females. That’s their POV, maybe because of who or what they are.

trisher

Doodledog do you never tire of repeating the same things? Which have been dealt with so many times.
I really can't go into all of those things again. But I will repeat The law protects women's spaces it is not the fault of transpeople if the law is not applied.
But I will ask again. If not by appearance how do I judge who is a woman (or an adult human female)? And if it doesn't matter why on earth can't a transwoman be a woman?

Oh yes, I absolutely do tire of it. But we keep getting asked the same questions, about how you are to know, are you meant to ask to see genitals, yada yada yada.

As we all know, the law is not always adhered to, and it doesn't matter whose fault it is, that is the situation.

From what you have said, you couldn't judge who is a woman anyway, as you don't know what one is. The question is not about you, or whether you could (or should ever have to) judge whether someone is a woman or not, it is about whether a transwoman is able to circumvent the usual protections of informed consent to intimate examinations, and the other things that have been done to death.

That the law does not protect women from these things is the very point we are trying to make.

This discussion is not about womens spaces Doodledog. If that is what you want to discuss, either go to another thread or address those that will answer it for you.
And this from someone who talks about thread policing and complains that others' requests are DEMANDS (your capitals), even when they are simple requests for you to answer your own question when you weren't satisfied with the answers given by others, and offensively wrote them off as bigotry.

Language creates our reality.
Indeed it does, which is why it really matters that everyone knows what we are talking about. If we are expected to a accept that the definition of women (ie that we are adult human females) is bigoted, and nobody will give us a replacement definition, how do we discuss women? The language no longer includes us. Now that is how reality gets changed, and that is what people who care about the rights of women are upset about.

Some on here are still insisting on policing languge.
If you can't see the irony here, I despair. What I and others are doing is trying to retain the language that allows a discussion of women and women's rights, and women's issues, health, life-chances and many other things, and know what the word means. It is the policing of the language that we object to.

When you guys don't even want to allow pronoun badges and argue they aren't necessary despite them being a personal choice available to anyone and none of your business...

Well then it's just obvious to me that you don't care who might be hurt reading these discussions and you certainly do not care about trans people whatever we want to call them or they want to call themselves.

If you are willing to talk to other posters, who are only women by the way because they say they are, and allow insults, swear words and bringing in their personal lives in to it, then I just have 0 respect for you or your opinions any more.

Thank you for your time.

Insults have flown in both directions as far as I can see. Swear words? Where? I can cope quite well not "having your respect" vs because I know that the trans issue isn't just confined to the microcosm that is GN, nor is it confined to the demographic of older, white natal women but thank you for your time in posting your opinion.

Hopefully, if all goes well in the House of Lords this afternoon, natal women will be safe from predatory men in prisons soon. I'll be cheering Lord Blencathra on at 14.30.