Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults 'have better mental health’

Rosie51

GagaJo The whole 'trans women are not women' offends me .... but that is an accurate scientific statement. Transwomen are men, they have male genetics. The whole 'cisgender' thing is a made up word using a latin prefix that is used in chemistry to describe structure in molecules. It was made up by transpeople who, having chosen their own descriptor, decided they would apply it to others, without any consultation or agreement. That it isn't included in 'hate speech' just follows on from misogyny not being included as a hate crime, disgraceful as that is.

That is your point of view. I don't agree.

The definitions of the words mentioned in the Oxford Dictionary shows them to be derogatory terms

So it's not the same.

I've also seen people say they don't like "natal women" either

If I am wrong for saying what I need to feel comfortable in discussion then why am I held to different standards?

I haven't actually used the term in discussion since except to explain its meaning and I see no reason to be offended by it that I understand but let's see if I can thought police myself and if I get the same courtesy in return.

You are assuming that person identifies as a gender. I don't identify as a gender I am a woman, an adult human female. It's insulting to assume a belief I don't have.

last post to gaga in response to the misgendering post.

That's your point of view. I don't agree.

Dead gendering is a made-up term to describe calling someone by their biological sex. Calling them something they already are, if you like.

VS, when has someone called you something with which you don't identify? On this or any other thread?

Rosie51

You are assuming that person identifies as a gender. I don't identify as a gender I am a woman, an adult human female. It's insulting to assume a belief I don't have.

The bottom line is, she hasn't used hate speech and it is a term non-gender critical people use. Some of the terms gender-critical people use offend pro-trans individuals.

We cannot cancel each others speech unless it fits within the category of hate speech.

This attempt to control the speech of others is cancel culture.

Oh bollocks. It is no more so than asking people to use pronouns that don't match the sex of the person using them.

Most people happily do so out of politeness, which is not a lot to ask. There is no difference between that and being decent enough to refrain from calling people by a term which they have specifically asked you not to do.

Well, I'm not rude, or passive aggressive or playing victim which I find offensive.

And I haven't actually refered to anyone here as cisgender while knowing they were offended by it.

So there we are

Can we draw a line under it now as my mental health matters but the topic is trans mental health

Well said Doodledog

Oh goodness me, asking someone not to use a term many find offensive is 'cancel culture' Thank goodness the TRAs only use driving people out of their jobs etc which we are always told is not cancel culture!

VS "everybody's mental health matters or nobody's mental health matters." Paraphrased from Michael Connelly.

It's a given that everyone's mental health matters but the topic is how we can support trans mental health

By ensuring a crew as to professional support comes sooner, allowing reversable transition earlier, or preventing harassment in school or society in general

It seems to me if you are not prepared to show respect by using someone's chosen pronoun you really can't complain if they use a term like cisgender even though you don't like it.
If you show respect you will be afforded respect.
Ignore others and they will ignore you.

Has anyone said they won't use someone's chosen pronouns?

trisher

It seems to me if you are not prepared to show respect by using someone's chosen pronoun you really can't complain if they use a term like cisgender even though you don't like it.
If you show respect you will be afforded respect.
Ignore others and they will ignore you.

This.

Applies everywhere in life, I find.

That should say "access" not "crew" but a whole crew of professionals wouldn't be a bad thing lol

trisher

It seems to me if you are not prepared to show respect by using someone's chosen pronoun you really can't complain if they use a term like cisgender even though you don't like it.
If you show respect you will be afforded respect.
Ignore others and they will ignore you.

Where on earth does this come from? Not one person has said they wouldn't use someone's chosen pronoun. Although I expect many of us would refuse if we were in the unfortunate position of having been raped by a man who identifies as female, and only the nastiest of misogynists could expect otherwise. Given that nobody has used the wrong pronouns for VS may we be afforded the respect of her not using the term cisgender?

GagaJo

trisher

It seems to me if you are not prepared to show respect by using someone's chosen pronoun you really can't complain if they use a term like cisgender even though you don't like it.
If you show respect you will be afforded respect.
Ignore others and they will ignore you.

This.

Applies everywhere in life, I find.

I couldn't agree more.

Who has said that they don't use anyone's chosen pronoun?

My objections are to being asked to declare my own pronoun, particularly on email, and to being referred to as cis.

For one thing, I don't have a gender, I have a sex, so the whole idea of a gender pronoun is anathema to me, and for another, as someone with a 'unisex' name, I see no reason to be tagged as female in advance of meeting someone. My sex is irrelevant to my professional competence.

I have explained why I object to 'cis'. I do, however, respect the right of others to use whatever name and pronoun they prefer, and wouldn't dream of deliberately using the wrong one.

I have seen nobody on this thread say that they would do otherwise, and don't understand the bit about ignoring people.

Part of the Legal definition of Hate Speech is anything that causes another person distress based on gender definition.

Now if someone finds the term ‘ciswoman’ distressing as a reference to their gender and asks for it not to be used. And another person or group of people insist that they will go on using it even though they know it causes distress, is that not Hate Speech?

Ilovecheese

Has anyone said they won't use someone's chosen pronouns?

That's how I read this Ilovecheese Oh bollocks. It is no more so than asking people to use pronouns that don't match the sex of the person using them
Apparently it means. My objections are to being asked to declare my own pronoun, particularly on email, and to being referred to as cis.
I still haven't worked out if this means Doodledog is using a pronoun that doesn't match her/his sex or not.

I do know that most transpeople don't insist on anyone stating a pronoun because they are aware that people at different stages of transition sometimes find this difficult.

.

Eh?

I have said several times that I object to being asked to declare a 'gender pronoun'. You are well aware of this, as you accused me of lying about it not long ago, when I told you that this was often a requirement in workplaces and you hadn't heard of the practise.

I have also made it clear several times, as I am sure that others will attest, that I have no issue with using whatever pronouns other people prefer. In fact I said so a couple of posts above this one.

You are also well aware that I am a woman (adult human female), as I have firmly declared this on several occasions.

Please stop twisting my words. You did not read my post as my saying that I wouldn't use other people's pronouns. Sinking to this sort of disingenuous behaviour is unnecessary.

So apparently it seems what you are saying is you don't object to using someone's chosen pronoun but you actively approve of others who do.
I apologise if I misunderstood that.
Personally I disapprove of people who police others language in any way.

No, you've 'misunderstood' again.

I am happy to use someone's referred pronoun, and think others should do as they please, although I would personally think that anyone who does not respect the wishes of others was being rude.

I do not police others' language, but I think that everyone should treat others with respect, and that includes those who persist in using 'cis' when they have been specifically asked not to do so.

I don't know what is so difficult about that.

So what term would you like to see used for thoe whose birth gender matches their chosen one Doodledog ? You will probably say "woman" but I'm afraid that doesn't help because transgender people who don't identfy with their birth gender are already using the gender terms man and woman and the words have become inclusive. Personally I'm quite happy to say "cisgender woman" if anyone really needs to know, just as I would use cisgender man if necessary. But as you don't like cis what would you like? Is natal woman OK?

Incidenly none of this matters. The fact that teens are being treated with repect and given the help they need is what matters, and it seems it is happening.