Covid figures from ONS of Covid only deaths with no pre-existing conditions.

Motherofmany So sorry to read about your son.

Callistemon21

From the ONS dataset:

Pre-existing conditionICD-10 Codes
Accidental fallsW00-W19
Cardiac arrhythmiasI47-I49
Cerebrovascular diseasesI60-I69
Chronic lower respiratory diseasesJ40-J47
Cirrhosis and other diseases of liverK70-K76
Dementia and Alzheimer's diseaseF01, F03, G30
DiabetesE10-E14
Diseases of the musculoskeletal system and connective tissueM00-M99
Diseases of the urinary systemN00-N39u
Fracture of femurS72
Heart failure and complications and ill-defined heart diseaseI50-I51
Hypertensive diseasesI10-I15
Influenza and pneumoniaJ09-J18
Ischaemic heart diseasesI20-I25
Malignant neoplasms of lymphoid haematopoietic and related tissueC81-C96
ObesityE66
Other medical careZ51
Pulmonary heart disease and diseases of pulmonary circulationI26-I28
Pulmonary oedema and other intestinal pulmonary diseasesJ80-J84
Symptoms signs and ill-defined conditionsR00-R99

So an accidental fall over an object which someone carelessly left in your way is defined as a pre-existing condition!

Accidental falls can and do lead to pneumonia through lack of mobility. Also PE, blood clots, non of these occurring before the fall. So yes a pre condition.

Just felt I must add, our beautiful son age 21, deafblind cerebral palsy was in hospital requiring urgent major abdominal surgery. Two days before he was asymptomatic but tested positive for covid, the surgery had to go ahead. Sadly died 3 days postoperatively. We had to put our foot down that covid was not on the death certificate .
Pleased about the BBC Calendargirl

The BBC News reports on the Covid deaths are now saying that some of the deaths are people with Covid, not necessarily from Covid.

Only started saying that the last few days.

ayse

No, not the purpose of my post. I just wish the figures presented would give a breakdown between those with no other conditions and those with other health issues.

It will also be interesting to see how many non-Covid deaths there have been during the previous Covid years that would otherwise have been delayed or saved.

The health service has been pulled to pieces through lack of funding, loss of staff etc. and we are now suffering the consequences of government inadequacy and failure to put in place competent pandemic planning.

Why does it matter?

I have diabetes, so am at higher than average risk from Covid, but live a perfectly healthy life and am hoping to live for another 20 years or so.

The majority of people over 60 in the UK have one of the pre-existing conditions the ONS lists - in addition to age, which is a huge risk factor in itself.

Why do you want to distinguish between the two groups?

It's useful for people to be able to recognise their own risk factors, so they can be more cautious, but it's not useful when analysing deaths and encourages an attitude that people are killed by their pre-existing conditions and they don't somehow "count" as Covid deaths.

Listening to Dr Johns latest blog he mentions that we’re still in flu season and that there are some nasty strains of flu in some parts of the world. Given that covid restrictions last winter meant that there were few if any deaths from flu would it not make sense to keep restrictions going until we’re out of flu season? The restrictions aren’t affecting the economy: doesn’t the PM say that we’re doing very well at the moment ( if we ignore food prices etc) so why not just wait a few more weeks? I seem to have caught a cold and I hardly ever go anywhere so I’m sure that, even if the vaccine is protecting me against covid I seem to catch other things quite easily. And I doubt if the flu vaccine I’ve had will cover me for the flu that’s in some Asian countries.

Maybe I am cynical.
In the last couple of days, it is becoming clear that action, on two occasions at least, was not taken quickly enough.
(In industry if a problem was identified, things happened pretty quickly!
And it is becoming more apparent that figures have been massaged to present a darker picture than reality.
Did no one ever analyse the figures and publish the findings?
Normally government is only too happy to flood us with statistics.
Typical politicians; being economical with the truth, so that those on the front line are more heavily stressed.
All because someone, somewhere tells us what they want us to know rather than the truth.
"Don't frighten the horses while we play as if the rules are for others".

I don't know if was common place but early on in the pandemic one of my friends relatives that passed was in a sealed coffin wearing a hospital gown and they were so upset by the fact he'd be cremated in a hospital gown. Being able to say goodbye and dress someone after they died aren't small things to people, it is really upsetting.

Thank you Shep

But what a job to do.
There was a chap on the radio a few days ago who worked at a crematorium and his job included telling mourners that they couldn’t enter the chapel of rest.
He was saying that hearing of the shenanigans of Johnson and his chums, made him question whether he should have been more lenient.

Fanny
We had the same situation with our dear friend.
Then his son ( my Godson) arrived. Think Clark Kent on steroids ?
The guards didn’t argue. He was able to see his father before he died.

How dreadful Fanny. I’m so sorry.?

My husband has been in Critical Care with respiratory issues three times in 12 months.
It’s awful.
Prior to Covid it was common place to have counselling.
He was extremely close to having a nervous breakdown before Christmas.
The first time he was in, he told me that there were guards outside the ward stopping crying relatives from entering

By all accounts it’s truly horrible. Having asthma, I have a huge fear of being unable to breathe. The feeling is indescribable.

Do you not realise how awful death from covid is? I don’t think it’s like slipping away gently into the night.

Just taking a step back from this: we are all mortal.
Some deaths are horrible, and Covid is certainly one of those, but what sort of death would we wish for?
I am dreading long years of deterioration, especially if that includes dementia. I don't really want to reach 100. Something is going to take me. I think it helps to think about this. My DH seems to think he is immortal and won’t plan or talk about older age. He has several health conditions which probably mean he would not survive Covid. My father recovered from cancer, but died of a sudden stroke. My Father in law died in his late sixties of a heart attack, unexpectedly, with no history of illness of any sort.
Are we going to hide away for the rest of our lives for fear of Covid? Personally we are being cautious, but I can’t help feeling there is more to think about here.

Joelsnan

It would be interesting to know what criteria other countries use for their Covid figures. I think Germany only publishes Covid deaths with no other underlying conditions.

Do you have a link a source for that because I don't think it's true.

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m not sure what your intention is ayse. So many of us have pre-existing conditions, whether well controlled or not, and stood a good chance of dying had we caught covid before vaccines were available. I’m one of them. Without covid we had a reasonable life expectancy.

And a lot of CEV people are still very much at risk because the vaccines don’t offer them adequate protection. I’m still very much keeping to social distancing rules and only venture out if it’s necessary as I’m not making sufficient antibodies, despite just having had a 4th jab.

It would be interesting to know what criteria other countries use for their Covid figures. I think Germany only publishes Covid deaths with no other underlying conditions.

I find it really disturbing that I keep hearing quite strange Covid 'downplay' comments - almost denial. Why is that?

There's the comparison to flu, the 'small' death toll, even the 'herd immunity' (there's no evidence that immunity lasts - it's not the measles).

All that - and speaking as if it's in the past, all over with, the compulsive 'back to normal'.

The way I see it? - so many deaths, so much illness, two long years of worry and restricted lives.

The uncertainty of Long Covid, the NHS on it's knees, exhausted doctors and nurses, means people avoid diagnosis, ignore symptoms - still somewhat scared to risk going out there, unless it's an emergency.

Someone we know who is a similar age to us (couple wise) 40s/50s died from covid recently. He had type 1 diabetes. They still have a daughter at school. Apart from having diabetes he was fit and healthy. It is devastating.

And ‘^other medical care^‘

The facts are that Covid has caused over 10% excess deaths but also put a lot of stress on the NHS treating related illness. In addition lockdowns and isolations has caused a lot of personal and business disruption.

With hindsight once vaccination was started it would probably been better to say “stay at home if you are ill”, because any attempt to restrict spread seems to have been futile.

choughdancer

As far as I can understand, HIV/AIDS deaths mostly happen as a result of an infection or cancer, which comes about due to the failure of the immune system due to AIDS (I am not an expert though!). These could be described as deaths WITH HIV/AIDS, rather than OF it. However the death wouldn't have happened without the person being infected with AIDS.

It seems to me that similarly with Covid 19, even if another condition is already in existence, Covid is the reason that the condition becomes bad enough to kill the person. So the statement that a patient died WITH Covid doesn't mean it was not a cause. I think that stating that a death was 'within 28 days of a positive Coronavirus test' is thus a reasonable way to report these deaths.

I agree. I think this kind of discussion ignores the fact that Covid causes excess deaths.

MaizieD

ayse

I was just interested to know who died OF Covid rather than with Covid. Just passing on info I found interesting. My DH nearly died with Covid and no hidden agenda except the dire state of our health service.

But if the person with an underlying condition died because they had covid but wouldn't otherwise have died, they died OF covid. It's the sophistry that annoys me.

But, whatever the covid deaths, we have a big time bomb ticking away with all the people who haven't been able to get treatment over the past two years and a government which will do its best to evade giving the NHS any more funding.

I couldn't agree with you more Maizie. I was diagnosed with T2 diabetes in my mid 30s and I know it's reduced my life expectancy. However, I've lived with the condition for over 30 years and it's well-controlled. There is no reason to think I won't be around for a good few years - but Covid could change that! If I were to die from Covid, I'd just be written off as somebody with a pre-existing condition, as though I didn't matter.

I've seen the stats somewhere (although I can't remember where) and the majority of people over 65 have a pre-existing chronic condition - presumably they don't matter.

Baggs

Obesity has put many people more at risk than they might have been otherwise.

Thanks for the figures, ayse. They do seem to show that the vaccine programme has helped a good deal.

I wonder how those numbers compare with typical years of flu deaths.

I've posted the flu statistics from the ONS at least twice. They are a fraction of the deaths from/with Covid. What is the point of comparing?