Misuse of emergency ambulances

Fleurpepper

The contract for GPs were changed around 2000. They were told that if they did not do housecalls, they would be docked 7000 from salary.

Many, after spending years and years, doing house calls and night calls, 1 night in 3 or 5, ON TOP of their full-time hours (eg if called at 2am, 4 am and 5 am- they would still have to be at work when surgery opened) - and often for things that could easily have waited, and were not at all emergencies, and for people who were well able to make it to the surgery, etc) - decided that 7000 was a sum they could well afford to lose, in order to get some sleep and get home to see the kids once in a while.

So they stopped. Home visits and night calls went to agencies- and those then stopped too as too expensive.

Where are you *Fleurpepper? Home visits are part of the core contract for GP services. If you look on any GP practice website it will tell you what their arrangements for home visits are. As I said, my neighbour had a home visit from his GP a few days ago, they are definitely still happening.

The contract for GPs were changed around 2000. They were told that if they did not do housecalls, they would be docked 7000 from salary.

Many, after spending years and years, doing house calls and night calls, 1 night in 3 or 5, ON TOP of their full-time hours (eg if called at 2am, 4 am and 5 am- they would still have to be at work when surgery opened) - and often for things that could easily have waited, and were not at all emergencies, and for people who were well able to make it to the surgery, etc) - decided that 7000 was a sum they could well afford to lose, in order to get some sleep and get home to see the kids once in a while.

So they stopped. Home visits and night calls went to agencies- and those then stopped too as too expensive.

How about this idea. If a paramedic calls (and more on bikes might be a good idea) and the patient needs hospital but not a life-threatening emergency e.g. a suspected broken wrist, they instruct the patient to call a taxi to get to hospital. One paramedic said they were often replacing GP call outs and when they found patients needing antibiotics not hospital, they had to phone the GP, often wait to get through, then request antibiotics and collect them from the pharmacy for the patient . Ridiculous

Newdawn

Some people definitely call ambulances when they could and should get themselves to hospital. One question I am interested in is this. Do GPs do any house calls now? I haven't had a house call for forty years but wondered whether any are done now? I think Tony Blair's govt offered GPS the option to opt out of house calls? Not go bashing as mine have been excellent.

Yes, they do still do house calls, my neighbour had one the other day.

Gp not go!

Some people definitely call ambulances when they could and should get themselves to hospital. One question I am interested in is this. Do GPs do any house calls now? I haven't had a house call for forty years but wondered whether any are done now? I think Tony Blair's govt offered GPS the option to opt out of house calls? Not go bashing as mine have been excellent.

Got an ex-friend who seriously thinks of the ambulance service as her own personal Uber service- infuriating- absolutely nothing wrong with her over the years!

growstuff

narrowboatnan

Years ago, back in the 60s, a work colleague had an accident with her car (misjudged a bend, going too fast, ended up upside down in the ditch). An ambulance was called and attended. A few weeks later she got a bill for Ambulance Call out.

Similarly, my DH at around the same era, had a motorbike accident, got shipped off to hospital in an ambulance. Again, a few weeks later, he received a bill for Ambulance Call Out. He can’t remember how much it was for, and he didn’t pay it but there was no follow up action taken.

Anyone else remember this happening, and should a similar scheme be put in place nowadays?

I remember notices about people being charged for road traffic accident call outs. I think the idea was that they would be part of any insurance claim.

Still applies.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-injury-cost-recovery-scheme/guidance-on-the-application-of-the-nhs-injury-cost-recovery-scheme-for-2022-to-2023

Helenlouise3

According to the news the day after the last strike, there were significantly fewer calls for an ambulance on the strike day. that should tell us something.

Exactamondo raymondo!! It's always the same! My mum was SRN too and always said unless you've had a serious accident or it's a REAL emergency( like fallen through plate glas window and bleeding to death! .....it was the early 60s !!!) You do NOT call 999 or expect an ambulance she said even in those days folk treated them like taxis! I rushed my 5year old DS 12 miles down M61 to Preston hospital when he had pneumonia as we reckoned it was quicker. And they agreed at hospital too! Also when I was having miscarriage, quicker to use our car, and when ex cut his wrist accidentally with a Stanley knife.......all non life threatening apart from my little DS who had to be kept awake! I've read some shocking cases where a woman ripped her nail off (gel nail got caught in fence) called 999! And the times they're used as taxis by drunks! Disgusting practice.time this was all sorted out.

narrowboatnan

Years ago, back in the 60s, a work colleague had an accident with her car (misjudged a bend, going too fast, ended up upside down in the ditch). An ambulance was called and attended. A few weeks later she got a bill for Ambulance Call out.

Similarly, my DH at around the same era, had a motorbike accident, got shipped off to hospital in an ambulance. Again, a few weeks later, he received a bill for Ambulance Call Out. He can’t remember how much it was for, and he didn’t pay it but there was no follow up action taken.

Anyone else remember this happening, and should a similar scheme be put in place nowadays?

I remember notices about people being charged for road traffic accident call outs. I think the idea was that they would be part of any insurance claim.

Cases such as your neighbour are why there needs to be more investment in community healthcare.

Niucla On the other hand, there are people like my mother. She had COPD and was found collapsed in a chair by her neighbour. She could hardly breathe and had been sick. The neighbour called for an ambulance and my mother was found to have pneumonia and spent over a week in hospital.

Frankie51

I can see there being a charge for calling out the ambulance coming soon. There nearly was one for GP appointments but it was not followed through. That might deter any time wasters . I guess you would need an all party agreement in Parliament to not make it into a political issue . It doesn't have to be eyewatering and could be reduced for people with low incomes . I know it's not what the NHS stands for, and I do not support an American style private health service in any way, but the NHS was set up in a time when medicine was not so complex . We have an aging population, people are surviving things that used to kill you. Medical advances cost a fortune these days , there is more demand on the health services for a wider variety of needs than in the past.

What would you do about emergency heart attacks? I collapsed as I was walking along the road. Initially, I didn't realise I was having a heart attack. Should I have checked that I had my bank details before I phoned 999?

Silverlady333

I trained to be a nurse in my early 40's and am now retired. As part of my training I had to go out with the ambulance crew. (All I did was observe). We went to a RTA off a motorway where 3 ambulances attended.
We also went to a house where a child maybe 12 years old had fallen wearing his roller boots and damaged his finger tip. It was pretty bad the skin and flesh had peeled back from his finger, but the family had called 999 for that! His parents hadn't even taken his roller boots off for him. The ambulance crew were not impressed and told the parents they could have taken their child to A&E themselves. (nice big car sitting on the drive) but never the less because he was a child the ambulance was used to escort him to A&E followed by the parents in their car!
Another 999 call out was to a drunk man who had hurt his ankle. The house was some sort of doss house for drunks. The 'patient' had rung 999 because it was free and he had no credit on his phone. Looked like he had sprained his ankle, propped up on a beer crate (you couldn't really tell) but he refused to go to the hospital. He only wanted the paramedic to look at his ankle for him. Despite the paramedic explaining the patient might need an x ray he refused to go. We left without doing anything with one very angry paramedic. So people misusing ambulances is not a new phenomenon.

My late mother who was an SRN, told me similar stories - as you say, it's nothing new.

What to do, though? Apart from those who knowingly and deliberately mis-use the ambulance service (and I've no idea of their numbers) - there does seem to be a collective lack of awareness about what constitutes an emergency. Then, again, what may not appear to be an emergency could quite easily be one ultimately, so that presents a bit of a problem.

Any 'awareness' campaign (if such campaigns actually do any good, I don't know) would have to be pretty specific. There are those it seems who will call an ambulance at the drop of a hat, and others who will only do so as a last resort, so I really don't know what the answer is.

... and as for those - mentioned by another poster - who rage against an ambulance parked "in their way" who don't give a damn about the person needing medical attention, I sincerely hope they meet another of their ilk when and if it's their turn to need one. Sometimes, I despair more at people than the crisis situation itself.

The best way to deal with this is to route calls through 111 - if they deem an ambulance necessary, there is a triage that can offer initial advice. I have twice had to call 111 when not sure I needed and ambulance and ambulances have turned up promptly.
I think there is a surge of people going to a&e because they can’t get appointments with their GP. Our access to a GP appointment is severely limited there is always a recorded message diverting patients to 999 and 111. If you can bear to hang on the message on a repeat goes on for half an hour until you can speak to a person. Then all daily appointments are gone by 9am and routine appointments are only ‘released’ after 11am ane if you get lucky you can get an appointment in 5 or 6 weeks. It’s no better than a lottery for healthcare

I trained to be a nurse in my early 40's and am now retired. As part of my training I had to go out with the ambulance crew. (All I did was observe). We went to a RTA off a motorway where 3 ambulances attended.
We also went to a house where a child maybe 12 years old had fallen wearing his roller boots and damaged his finger tip. It was pretty bad the skin and flesh had peeled back from his finger, but the family had called 999 for that! His parents hadn't even taken his roller boots off for him. The ambulance crew were not impressed and told the parents they could have taken their child to A&E themselves. (nice big car sitting on the drive) but never the less because he was a child the ambulance was used to escort him to A&E followed by the parents in their car!
Another 999 call out was to a drunk man who had hurt his ankle. The house was some sort of doss house for drunks. The 'patient' had rung 999 because it was free and he had no credit on his phone. Looked like he had sprained his ankle, propped up on a beer crate (you couldn't really tell) but he refused to go to the hospital. He only wanted the paramedic to look at his ankle for him. Despite the paramedic explaining the patient might need an x ray he refused to go. We left without doing anything with one very angry paramedic. So people misusing ambulances is not a new phenomenon.

According to the news the day after the last strike, there were significantly fewer calls for an ambulance on the strike day. that should tell us something.

DaisyAnne

If you would actually like to see something positive (those who don't thrive on negative thinking) this programme was very interesting.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001h917/panorama-the-nhs-crisis-can-it-be-fixed

That looks interesting - I've downloaded it to watch later.

I hope no-one is thriving on negative thinking. I'm sure most just want effective answers and solutions - both short and long term ones.

The only negativity I feel creeping over me is when the Health Secretary refuses to accept the ONS numbers of extra deaths and blames the crisis on the seasonal colds and 'flu - of course, they haven't helped the situation, obviously, but if only he would just admit, yes, there is a crisis in the NHS and we're going to have to look at ways to fix it... I'd be a lot happier believing there was a 'will', because where there's a will, there's always a way.

I look forward to watching the programme - which I wasn't aware of until your post.

Years ago, back in the 60s, a work colleague had an accident with her car (misjudged a bend, going too fast, ended up upside down in the ditch). An ambulance was called and attended. A few weeks later she got a bill for Ambulance Call out.

Similarly, my DH at around the same era, had a motorbike accident, got shipped off to hospital in an ambulance. Again, a few weeks later, he received a bill for Ambulance Call Out. He can’t remember how much it was for, and he didn’t pay it but there was no follow up action taken.

Anyone else remember this happening, and should a similar scheme be put in place nowadays?

I was given some antibiotics that I shouldn’t have being given with medication I’m on. Anyway long and short of it. I kept blacking out and few other things. I somehow managed to ring 111 who sent out an ambulance I can’t remember much at the time I live alone they knew I was genuinely in need of help. I don’t remember how going to hospital I just remember coming round in hospital with a drip attached to me. The nurses had me near the desk and they were talking about ppl turning up for silly things like cut in fingers etc which only needed a sticker plaster. If those sorts of ppl used common sense hospital wouldn’t be as bad. I was in 3 days with fractured shoulder broken ribs all caused by blackouts and on drip but that’s what they were saying too many turn up that don’t need to be or ringing for a ambulance which is taking time from gen ppl. Before that time last time I had to call an ambulance. Was was because my granddaughter had breathing problems as a baby she’s 11 now But they were short staffed and I couldn’t thank them enough. I also nipped into the ambulance depo with a tin of biscuits lol

My friend left the ambulance service because she was sick of driving a big yellow taxi. Say no more.

Tell me about! I have an eighty five year old neighbour who suffers from COPD. He has been told that this is liveable but refuses to accept it. Years ago I have called an ambulance for him because he really was struggling to breath and his chest was 'rattling.' Over the years they have found medication that has helped. He will call an ambulance at the drop of a hat. He must tell lies to get one? he will ring me , he has a sore throat - gargle with salt water, honey and lemon, plenty fluids. He is an educated man but has no common sense of how to deal with every day things. Next thing you know there is an ambulance outside

He thinks it is his divine right to call an ambulance, Even when they were on strike I told him he mustn't call an ambulance as they are only dealing with life threatening calls. His reply - what do you think not being able to breath is ?A couple of weeks ago he called an ambulance every other day, He is already on the frequent callers list and is heading for the nuisance callers list Paramedics can waste at least one and a half hours justifying why they can't take him to hospital!

The ambulance is taking longer to get here of late. He called an ambulance at midnight they told him four to five hours so he got into bed and snuggled down to go to sleep - hardly an emergency?They rang him and woke him up saying they would be another four hours. They arrived before 8.00 am and were here for over three hours!

The majority of the paramedics are on first name terms they know him so well. On the odd occasion that he does go to hospital he has been in the ambulance all night, He thinks it's wonderful, he has attention and someone to chat to! Then he has been sitting in a wheel chair for three days in A & E and then been sent home. it's sad in one respect but a complete and utter waste of resources. Especially when a lady of one hundred and three is left lying on the floor for nine hours, the paramedic comes and gives her pain relief and says an ambulance will be along in a couple of hours. This is all in a village in a rural area in North Wales!

I can see there being a charge for calling out the ambulance coming soon. There nearly was one for GP appointments but it was not followed through. That might deter any time wasters . I guess you would need an all party agreement in Parliament to not make it into a political issue . It doesn't have to be eyewatering and could be reduced for people with low incomes . I know it's not what the NHS stands for, and I do not support an American style private health service in any way, but the NHS was set up in a time when medicine was not so complex . We have an aging population, people are surviving things that used to kill you. Medical advances cost a fortune these days , there is more demand on the health services for a wider variety of needs than in the past.

grandetante-JE65- my goodness that was going above & beyond the call of duty!- I couldnt see a drs receptionist going to all that trouble today.

The call operators often have to 'tweak out' the info they need i would imagine too- especially in my sons case as they dislike talking on the phone to people- and i was far too ill to do it myself (very much not like me) they just knew i needed help and i have 'other medical problems' so thats what they volunteered.And when asked, my name & address.It must be a very difficult job having to decide who needs an ambulence &who doesnt, but yes the paramedics can then assess the situation when they arrive.