No medical treatment after 75?

Witzend

I’ve also heard of an over 90, with fairly advanced dementia, being given a pacemaker at the family’s request - even though they’d been told by medics that without it, she’d probably drift off quite peacefully in her sleep.

To me, having seen far too much of it, any ‘striving to keep alive’ anyone with dementia beyond the earlier stages, is abuse, and verging on cruelty.

Who on earth wants to end up doubly incontinent, no clue about anything, unable to hold any sort of conversation, not knowing any of their family?
Surely a fate far worse than death.

Having seen my mother like that in the final stages of dementia, I agree with your last statement. I would not want my family to see me like that. I always said that in those final weeks - or rather months - she was no longer actually living, merely existing. You would not let a much loved pet go on like that.

Veejay, i thought with regular blood-letting, that condition could be managed without problems ?

No return to catch up by the OP, I notice.

DaisyAnne he was/is the Whitehouse oncologist. I have heard him more than once on the radio.

Here is a recent article:
www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2023/01/13/ezekiel-emanuel

Thank you NotSpaghetti.

I’m 77 next week and take no medication, walk at least an hour a day have a huge zest for life. Love it all. I’m certainly not ready to check out yet.

Mum lived until she was 101, and was only ready to check out a few months before she died.

How can you deny people who are enjoying their life the health care they need?

Both my parents were diagnosed with cancer; DF at 63 and DM at 74. DF opted for palliative care only and was walking the hills with a friend the day before he died and generally had a good quality of life for the few months he lived post diagnosis. DM declined to be informed of her cancer diagnosis as she was being treated for lower limb bilateral Deep Vein Thrombosis in hospital at the time and really didn't want to know she had cancer as well. Her mobility was very limited when she returned home. She survived a further 6 months post diagnosis with no chemo or palliative care. Both retained their full mental faculties and some pleasure in life, cared for by their younger DD who was a trained nurse. I intend to follow their example when the time comes. I am 73 next month and both DM and DGM died in their 75th year.... I intend to live the next 2 years to the full as best I can, just in case! I have and Advanced Directive and an Advanced Care plan already drawn up and on my medical files.

DaisyAnne

No return to catch up by the OP, I notice.

What an odd thing to say! I work full time and I don't think my employer would be too happy at me haunting the Gransnet forums all afternoon. But I am interested in what people think, it might help me formulate my own strategic plan.

DaisyAnne

As he is an American doctor, I would have thought a lot of his income comes from fleecing looking after the elderly. What a strange thing to say. Where did you read it pen50? I'm not sure someone isn't being conned by this.

I read it in the Times. I thought it was an interesting take on how to deal with the illnesses of old age. As I said, I have a copy of the Alzheimer's gene, and dealing with a demented me is not something I have any desire to put my family through. Obviously, if there's some incredible medical breakthrough, that would be a different matter.

I am 77 this year and enjoy reasonable health, I am able to walk my dogs daily, do my housework and run a small voluntary library. This definitely should be a case to case basis.
I do agree with Blondiescot though that there has to be quality of life when "striving to keep alive"

I think it’s good when medics put forward this sort of idea. As this thread shows, it makes people think.

And I suspect that was the whole purpose.

I'm 75 this year, I've been to two pilates classes and ridden a big moving dressage horse three times this week, also walked the dog and been to two art classes. However, both OH and daughter know my wishes should I need invasive treatment that will destroy the quality of my life in return for a few more months and that if I have dementia I would not want treatment to extend my life. Daughter, as a hospital doctor, frequently has to deal with relations who are begging for treatment to continue when a patient should be allowed to die with dignity. I know she won't let that happen to me.

It's personal. Some people are not far off their prime at 75
Some quite a bit older may be president of the most powerful country in the world....
Some have such a poor quality of life and it's bye bye time
It's personal.
We should not be afraid of death. People should be allowed to choose it. I know there is an existence beyond death - I have enough proof of and conviction about this. And despite the cruelty of this world (mostly man-made) I believe that a loving Universe awaits to console, cleanse and heal our injured spirits as we go on to whatever the next stage may be.

Your post undines states beautifully just how I think about this subject as well as life and death in general. Each individual's circumstance is unique and while a person is able to think rationally, they should be allowed to decide for themselves whether to accept treatments.

A few weeks back I read the article the op is referencing. It definitely made me think. From my experience of watching 5 siblings and my df die from cancer as well as having battled it myself, there is merit in what he says.

I also think it is the right of the well to judge the quality of life of the less well.

Everyday we read about how young disabled people overcome their problems to lead a happy and fulfilling life. Why do we assume that just because someone is old and disabled person has no quality of life.

I had an aunt, otherwise healthy, diagnosed with dementia at the age of 90. She lived another six years and looking and talking to her, I would say that she was happy with her life, eating well etc etc until only a few months of her life when she beccame scare and paranoid of anything and anyone.

I would never have said that because she had dementia, she had no quality of life.

A 65-year old American oncologist, Ezekiel Emanuel, has recently said that he will refuse all forms of medical treatment after age 75, even antibiotics. His reasoning is that any extension of life achieved is likely to be of poor quality, and that a bout of pneumonia (with palliative care) is probably the kindest way to go, both for the person and for their family.

As others have said, he might change his mind when he reaches 75.

Would he refuse antibiotics for a minor, low-grade infection, I wonder? Seems a bit draconian.

His choice though.

And again, as others have pointed out, it's different strokes for different folks.

I underwent major surgery at age 74 and again at age 78 - recovered quite well - particularly after the last op as I got 'match-fit' prior to having it. And then carried on working in my own business. Also did a round of chemo - suffered a while - and then bounced back. I'm enjoying life, paying taxes so contributing.

If life becomes unbearable, I'll choose to let go. But not pluck a random figure out of the air as the deciding factor.

I'm always a bit meh about those who make such announcements - partly because it's a very personal and private decision, and because I always sense it's a kind of 'recommendation' of sorts... putting pressure on older people to consider that they should not be a "bother" to society.

I think we can all make those decisions for ourselves without someone pointing out the pitfalls of ageing - which most of us have already experienced to some degree or other.

toscalily

He might not say the same thing when he is 75!

Precisely!!

When I did my DNR, I always remember my doctor suggesting it was a good idea as I wouldn't believe the number of broken ribs as a result of the resuscitation procedure. Indeed?!

FannyCornforth

‘Best for his family’? Do they not like him?

😂😂😂

M0nica, I certainly never meant to suggest that no-one who has dementia has no quality of life. My mother suffered from Alzheimer's for several years and certainly had a reasonable quality of life for a few of those. However, in the latter years, her quality of life diminished rapidly until she honestly had none whatsoever. She had no idea who were were - I don't even think she knew we were there, she couldn't speak, could hardly eat or drink, just lay there in a bed with no concept of time or place. In her final few weeks, had I been able to put her out of her misery, I would have done so without hesitation. I will not put my family through what I went through. Where there is still a reasonable quality of life, that's different.

SueDonim

AGAA that’s not always the case at all. My medic dd has worked a lot on medicine for the elderly wards and it’s quite often the family who is demanding that their family member is kept alive. It is ultimately the doctor’s professional decision as to whether the patient continues to receive treatment but faced with relatives who are determined and may even be threatening towards staff, it’s a very hard thing to do.

I’ve heard of that, too - family demanding that someone be kept going, even though their quality of life is going to be very poor, or zero.
From all I gather, medics are very reluctant to argue - presumably afraid of, ‘Callous doctors wanted Mum to die!’ headlines in the tabloids.

Dh and I have made our wishes crystal clear in our H&W powers of attorney - in specified circumstances, if and when we can no longer speak - with full mental capacity - for ourselves, no life-prolonging or life-saving treatment. Palliative care only.

It cannot be age-specific.

He's an idiot, sorry. I'm glad he doesn't work here in the NHS.

Perhaps he feels he has no more to give but many others do.

Callistemon21

It cannot be age-specific.

He's an idiot, sorry. I'm glad he doesn't work here in the NHS.

Perhaps he feels he has no more to give but many others do.

... he should watch "Pasta Grannies", and see what these women are capable of in their 70s, 80s... and 90s.

Don't tell me they haven't had their fair share of ills and ailments as they've aged!

During lockdown, the programmes were a "must-watch"... the channel saw a 60% increase in viewership!