Nurses needing degrees

Maelil

The first degree that medical doctors receive is not the equivalent of a doctorate. That is a much higher degree and one that only a small % of doctors go in to attain.

There was a time when family doctors did not necessarily have an MB or MD. The LMSSA and other non degree qualifications were acceptable. That is not to say that medical training was much easier, as extensive pre-clinical and clinical study were undertaken as well as compulsory hospital placements.

Just as, I would imagine, the old SRN training was not just concerned with handing out pills, bedpans and bed-baths.

My granddaughter is in her second at university studying to be a paediatric nurse which she has been wanting to do since she was 3. A degree is a necessity now, nurses have a very responsible job. She and her parents have to fund this but she does work to fit in between shifts which she has been doing at a busy A&E department.

Lydie45

On the other side of the coin, my husband spent a lot of time in hospital. On one occasion an elderly man in the next bed was calling for a bedpan. He kept pressing his buzzer and calling out. Eventually I went to the nursing station and politely told them the man was getting very distressed. The nurse looked at me and said “I didn’t go to university to change bed pans, he will have to wait. When I got back to my husband the elderly man had tried to get out of bed and messed all over the floor. Another time a older nurse who had been dealing with quite complicated things with my husband said “she was retiring” we said that’s a shame as she was very good. She said “I’ve been told to continue doing what I’ve been doing for years I must get a degree so I’ve decided to retire” I know from experience you don’t need a degree to do complicated work. When I retired the person who replaced me had to have a degree to do work I had very successfully done for over 20 years without a degree.

The first nurse needs disciplining. Never, in any of the hospital stays/visits I've had over the last few years have I come across any nurse with that attitude. I've certainly never come across one who would be stupid enough to say that, even if that was what he'she thought. The hospital needs to get a grip on its staff, if that's how they talk to patients.

I did a degree at University for my Mental Health Training.. Nurses work autonomously ,in the sense that they have personal legal responsibilty for their own decisions.
.I was often in charge of a 36 bed ward at night very often at night with very little on-call help.. and maybe 3 other staff on the ward.. Then when I became a CPN I had 30 clients on my case load.. I needed to be able to liaise with Social Workers, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, clients families in care plan meetings, Police, MH crisis teams, Hospital ward staff etc and keep all the notes up to date.. give injections and check that medication is being taken etc etc It is a very challenging work and certainly needs to be degree level with many other subsequent courses to upskill..

ViceVersa

Daddima

David49

Nurses do need a degree it’s a lot more technical, managerial and administrative than it used to be. However most of the staff on the wards are not nurses they are CSWs Clinical Support Workers and many have only a short training before helping patients and gain further qualifications over time.

Nurses should have free degree training, but do need to work in the NHS for at least 5 yrs when qualified

I agree that a nurse being qualified to degree level is a good thing, but I do think losing Enrolled Nurse training was a mistake. They used to do two years practical training, mostly on wards, so were extremely competent in ‘hands-on’ patient care.

They still do practical training as part of their degree. The degree course involves placements in hospitals or other settings appropriate to the particular nursing degree.

I know they do practical training, but certainly not as much as a State Enrolled Nurse would have done.
My friend’s daughter was in her third year of doing midwifery training, and told me she couldn’t begin to actually deliver a baby, but she was a dab hand at critiquing articles in medical journals!

M0nica

Nursing is no longer just about caring. It is now a highly technical job. It is nurses operating and monitoring all those many machines and therapies that can be literally a matter of life and death for so many people.

I want to know that the people operating all those machines, administering those highly toxic drugs, know exactly what they are doing and these days the training they receive is at degree level so they should get the degree that goes with that high level of nursing.

Doctors are called 'doctors' because their training gives them the equivalent of a first degree and a doctorate. It follows that nurses - and paramedics should have a first degree.

From personal experience recently. I have far more confidence in the first degree trained nurses and paramedics than I do in the doctors.

Doctors do not have a doctorate, it is an honorary title. In the UK they graduate medical school with two bachelors degrees (bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery).

Daddima

ViceVersa

Daddima

David49

Nurses do need a degree it’s a lot more technical, managerial and administrative than it used to be. However most of the staff on the wards are not nurses they are CSWs Clinical Support Workers and many have only a short training before helping patients and gain further qualifications over time.

Nurses should have free degree training, but do need to work in the NHS for at least 5 yrs when qualified

I agree that a nurse being qualified to degree level is a good thing, but I do think losing Enrolled Nurse training was a mistake. They used to do two years practical training, mostly on wards, so were extremely competent in ‘hands-on’ patient care.

They still do practical training as part of their degree. The degree course involves placements in hospitals or other settings appropriate to the particular nursing degree.

I know they do practical training, but certainly not as much as a State Enrolled Nurse would have done.
My friend’s daughter was in her third year of doing midwifery training, and told me she couldn’t begin to actually deliver a baby, but she was a dab hand at critiquing articles in medical journals!

On the other hand, the witch who was supposed to be in charge of my care after a distressing Cesarean (a qualified old style midwife allegedly) probably couldn't have delivered a baby safely or even understood an article in a medical journal.

I had thought that in my day (60s) you needed A levels to start SRN training. At least, the girls in my year who went on to be nurses, started post A level.

Many years ago shortly after qualifying we would show the junior doctors how to do many procedures. Fortunately our patients were children or babies so they were not bothered!

Witzend

I had thought that in my day (60s) you needed A levels to start SRN training. At least, the girls in my year who went on to be nurses, started post A level.

The girls I knew, some of whom had gone to the Secondary Modern School, did the pre-nursing course at the Further Education College and went on to train as SRNs. In fact, I'm sure a member of my family did the pre-nursing course instead of A levels in the late 1970s.

Witzend

I had thought that in my day (60s) you needed A levels to start SRN training. At least, the girls in my year who went on to be nurses, started post A level.

Yes, you went straight onto a ward as Student Nurse, usually you lived in the nurses home, patient care is much the same but technology and admin are vastly different. A Levels in both cases, nursing is a vocation for life, fairly high pressure these days, my wife was a nurse and midwife, she lasted 35 yrs.

You could go in even younger. My friend, now retired, started as a cadet nurse before doing her SRN.

The difference is that nurses with a degree can take further qualifications as my DD has done and become senior practice nurses at management level. My DD specialises in oncology and hopes to do a post grad course when my GS is older.

AGAA4

The difference is that nurses with a degree can take further qualifications as my DD has done and become senior practice nurses at management level. My DD specialises in oncology and hopes to do a post grad course when my GS is older.

My specialist rheumatology nurse is supervised by my Consultant. They’re a great team who combine excellent medical knowledge with excellent emotional care of their patients. I haven’t seen my Consultant in 4 years because the meds she prescribed keep disease stable. After my husband died she asked my nurse to phone, see how I was and pass on sincere condolences. After my recent review,she met with my nurse and arranged a battery of blood/urine other tests. She reviewed my recent dexa scan and asked my nurse to phone to tell me she is reducing my meds as I’m doing so well and she always remembers meeting me about 10 years ago when the disease was horribly active.
How lucky am I to have such compassion combined with superb medical care

Doctors do not have a doctorate, it is an honorary title. In the UK they graduate medical school with two bachelors degrees (bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery).

That is the current situation but the title 'Dr' and 'Mr' for a consultant have roots in the 19th century and like most things in life, things were done dfferently then.

M0nica

^Doctors do not have a doctorate, it is an honorary title. In the UK they graduate medical school with two bachelors degrees (bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery).^

That is the current situation but the title 'Dr' and 'Mr' for a consultant have roots in the 19th century and like most things in life, things were done dfferently then.

So the only doctors are in fact those with a PhD?
Interesting.

NO that is not what I said. I said the history of these titles goes back tot the 19th century when they did things differently.

Rula commented on misdiagnosis by a doctor and subsequent correct diagnosis by a nurse

Diagnosis is s skill that is not entirely learned from books and scientific instruments. The extra skill of diagnosis is acquired by long experience and proper intuition. A newly qualified doctor who is perhaps over worked and rushed can't in many cases be as reliable a diagnostitian as an experienced and well informed nurse.

Caleo

Rula commented on misdiagnosis by a doctor and subsequent correct diagnosis by a nurse

Diagnosis is s skill that is not entirely learned from books and scientific instruments. The extra skill of diagnosis is acquired by long experience and proper intuition. A newly qualified doctor who is perhaps over worked and rushed can't in many cases be as reliable a diagnostitian as an experienced and well informed nurse.

I was misdiagnosed for years by an experienced GP, he'd have been about late 40s or early 50s going by appearances and his subsequent retirement.

I had seen him numerous times as I felt so tired and unwell. He was determined it was depression, didn't even do something as simple as testing for anaemia.

Eventually I phoned for an appointment as I was just like a zombie, things like I'd go to work and go and sleep in my car at lunchtime, when work finished I'd sleep in my car for an hour before I had the energy to do the 15 minute drive home.

Doctor wasn't available so I saw the nurse practitioner, she looked at my notes, asked me a few questions and said she thought she knew what it was and would do a blood test. Less than 24 hrs later I got a call that the GP needed to see me. You can imagine I was worried. When I sat down his opening words were, "there is good news and bad news. The good news is you will never have to pay for a prescription again, the bad news is you have a very underactive thyroid and we need to get you started on levothyroxine immediately. It will take some months to get you up to the full dose as we need to do it gradually. You poor thing, life must have felt like swimming through treacle." No shit Sherlock shame you'd been ignoring me for nearly 3 years.

So even experienced doctors can get it wrong. The striking thing in my case is the nurse identified it so quickly and accurately and he didn't even have the grace to apologise.

The Worried Well, I don't understand how the doctor missed hypothyroidism.! I used to work for a retired GP and a regular grouch of his was that much so called depression in elderly women is hypophyroidism.

hypothyroidism

I think that the idea of an Apprenticeship sounds excellent, presumably they can earn money whilst learning.
I'm concerned that so many nurses and Physios end up with bad backs, unable to continue in their active jobs.

The Apprenticeship has been going for a few years now. It's not a full degree course But you can do an extra year or so on top to give you the full degree. I think they start at Band 4 (bit like the old SEN's) the full degree you go in on a Band 5 and can go through the grades ( Senior Ward Sister /Charge Nurse/ Practitioners normally a Band 7 or even a 8a)

cc.....These day you shouldn't get a bad back, everyone has to do a lifting course yearly. Demonstrating how to used equipment to move patients.
It's all H&S and cast in stone.

the worriedwell - I had many blood tests between the age of 25 and 43 because of swollen joints, lack of movement or strength in my hands and wrists and worst of all, exhaustion. My TATT was dismissed as being a busy mum with small children. My GP said we don’t know why your hands and wrists are hot and swollen, just be glad it isn’t rheumatoid arthritis. It was.

Aged about 43 I almost lost the sight in my left eye. It was euvitis/inflamatory eye disease. Awful pain and light sensitive. I was lucky, the emergency GP read all my notes and told me I had inflammatory arthritis which previous blood tests showed as serum negative, something they now knew happened with active disease.
He sent me off to the eye hospital - steroids saved my eye. Tests showed both eyes permanently damaged by previous inflammation I hadn’t known about. The eye consultant told me “of course it’s arthritis, you will be partially sighted and disabled within ten years” . He turned on his heels and walked out
My GP reassured me, my positive attitude alongside better treatments meant he thought I’d be up before that happened
I’m 75 - doing well thanks to biologic injectables
Thank goodness for the NHS

Caleo

The Worried Well, I don't understand how the doctor missed hypothyroidism.! I used to work for a retired GP and a regular grouch of his was that much so called depression in elderly women is hypophyroidism.

I don't think I would have been described as elderly. I first went to him with the symptoms when I was in my 40s.