Shame on you, Scottish Parliament

I had pneumonia when I was 27. Never felt so ill in my life. Hospital for 2 weeks. I honestly thought I was about to depart this green and pleasant land.

I'm always in a quandary about assisted dying. I've been lucky and not witnessed anyone close to me suffering at end of life. So no experience of that which would probably sway me towards supporting it.

It's a tricky one. I'm pretty sure that it will eventually become law but not this time.

It used to be a grey area.

Now, medics do nothing that could be questioned or challenged. Times have changed.

Groups that feel strongly are prepared to take action against medics now, as a principle and it only takes one family member to raise a doubt to result n an investigation or suspension.

People are prepared to question (if not precisely accuse) medical decisions and treatment on social media.
This happens with withdrawal of treatments or decisions not to give treatment too.

As a result doctors and nurses are increasingly careful and cautious in administering any treatment, especially any drug above the recommended dose.

But even if morphine could be given freely there is pain and suffering that cannot be overcome until the fatal dose is reached. Which cannot be done at present.

FranP You seem to be u der tge impression that pain medication is readily adjusted. I have news for you, that is not the case. Having to demand someone attends to make adjustments is soul destroying when caring for a loved one. Can take hours, sonetimes waiting overnight until someone available. Even then its a dash in dash out attendance.

Lathyrus3

It used to be a grey area.

Now, medics do nothing that could be questioned or challenged. Times have changed.

Groups that feel strongly are prepared to take action against medics now, as a principle and it only takes one family member to raise a doubt to result n an investigation or suspension.

People are prepared to question (if not precisely accuse) medical decisions and treatment on social media.
This happens with withdrawal of treatments or decisions not to give treatment too.

As a result doctors and nurses are increasingly careful and cautious in administering any treatment, especially any drug above the recommended dose.

But even if morphine could be given freely there is pain and suffering that cannot be overcome until the fatal dose is reached. Which cannot be done at present.

This is very sad to hear and wasn't the case when I worked in the NHS, which is over twenty years ago!

It seems compassionate and caring end of life care is being held to ransom by the assisted dying lobby.

I find this very worrying indeed...

It isn’t the assisted dying lobby. Quite the opposite.

The social media posts and personal attacks on doctors come from family members who believe their loved one could have lived. Or from those against assisted dying who then seize upon a personal account and use it as fact.

Any complaint has to be investigated and do medical staff have to be very clear that only a standard, permitted dosage has been used.

The days of a bit extra to ease an inevitable death are long gone.

What about not giving enough of something or other?

I dont know what you mean?

There’s a prescribed maximum dosage for medication beyond which harm is known to occur. Medical staff can administer up to that level.

Lathyrus3

I dont know what you mean?

There’s a prescribed maximum dosage for medication beyond which harm is known to occur. Medical staff can administer up to that level.

Surely not if someone is terminally ill? End of life care withdraws anything but palliative treatment-surely it is left to the prescribing doctor how much pain relief a patient may need?

No wonder this bill has been thrown out- there seems to be so many misconceptions around...

When my friend was dying of cancer, the hospice nurses at home service gave her the maximum dose allowed. There had to be two of them to ensure the correct dosage was adhered to. And they couldn't give her any more until the allowed time had passed. She lasted fourteen days existing on morphine, unable to eat or drink anything, in nearly constant pain. It was awful to witness. By that point she was unable to communicate except by squeezing someone's hand. Even the pharmacist couldn't believe how she was hanging on. When she most needed help to let go, it was denied her. I don't blame the nurses at all. They did what they could. So I'm conflicted. Assisted dying would have made her death less painful but earlier in her illness, she would not have wanted it. I tell her story because I can see how hard it must be to make a decision about this.

keepingquiet

Lathyrus3

I dont know what you mean?

There’s a prescribed maximum dosage for medication beyond which harm is known to occur. Medical staff can administer up to that level.

Surely not if someone is terminally ill? End of life care withdraws anything but palliative treatment-surely it is left to the prescribing doctor how much pain relief a patient may need?

No wonder this bill has been thrown out- there seems to be so many misconceptions around...

A prescribing doctor cannot prescribe at a level that will cause death.

Nevertheless some do...

Plus they can prescribe under what a person needs..

I am not going to say any more.

But some people will, [or choose not to] understand what I am saying.

@FranP

Nobody suffers in pain (a morphine dose is increased to cope, right up to the point where it can hinder breathing already),

Unfortunately, that's pie in the sky.

fancythat

I am not going to say any more.

But some people will, [or choose not to] understand what I am saying.

I really don’t understand.

I don’t think it’s a topic for a obtuse hints really.

Doctors and nurses deal with the realities of medication and death all the time.

They are very aware of what they can legally do and the consequences of stepping outside that. Being a doctor will not absolve you from criminal charges.

Alleging on social media that any or all doctors act illegally, prescribing a dosage that would cause death is just the kind of accusation that causes them so many problems and the reason why they are now vigilant in prescribing only the maximum allowed dose.

I'm not hinting. I've seen it.

Lathyrus3

keepingquiet

Lathyrus3

I dont know what you mean?

There’s a prescribed maximum dosage for medication beyond which harm is known to occur. Medical staff can administer up to that level.

Surely not if someone is terminally ill? End of life care withdraws anything but palliative treatment-surely it is left to the prescribing doctor how much pain relief a patient may need?

No wonder this bill has been thrown out- there seems to be so many misconceptions around...

A prescribing doctor cannot prescribe at a level that will cause death.

But surely- this is what 'assisted' dying is? A lethal dose that will cause death?

Yes.

Done legally if it ever comes to pass.

That’s what the Bill is about.

I know people like to think that you f it comes to point and they r somebody they love are in agony and unbearable distress, “the doctor will be able to do something.”

And I know that in the past, that most likely did happen. Doctors took that upon themselves because their actions were rarely questioned.

Since Harold Shipman this has changed. He was able to administer lethal injections without question ti elderly patients for some years. Clearly much stricter safeguards had to be put in place. And were put in place.

Medics are taken to court now when relatives disagree on their decision not to give treatment or n the withdrawal of treatment. No doctor now would take the risk of action against them by administering a lethal dose of any medication. That would be criminal.

I find it strange that people feel more at ease with a doctor administering a medication quietly and illegally, than they do with it being carried out legally and with consent🤔

It has always gone on quietly and compassionately with family knowledge. It's just not spoken about and relies on doctor's integrity and relationships with patient and family. These days patients are much less likely to have long term relationships with trusted family doctors.

It was the institutionalised abuse of the Brompton Cocktail, mainly by nursing staff, which really raised the assisted dying controversy.
Murder is murder whether compassionate or not, that's why Assisted Dying needs to be decriminalised.

Old Frill,I think your last sentence is wrong.
Assisted Dying is taking life away intentionally, which is surely, murder.
I have no knowledge or experience of medical constraints , therefore I have to trust in the integrity of medical practitioners. My fear is that the Assisted Dying Bill has been rushed through with a high level of emotion and insufficient time spent on hard cold fact. Much more investigation is needed before it should be considered as a suitable law.

Easybee, I agree, my last sentence was wrong. I should have said that's why Assisted Dying needs to be debated.

An article about the current challenges in Scotland. It has challenged my opinion on Assisted Dying.

One in three Scottish people dies with unmet palliative care needs – what that means for assisted dying share.google/J1ci7pRD9O6lMuUeV

I’m afraid Aveline, that you are living in the past if you believe that doctors are still able to over prescribe in order to ease a painful death.

But I understand the fear and the comfort that people need to believe that. Just as they need to believe that there will always be effective palliative care.

I myself am very fearful of what dying can entail.

I'm not living in the past Lathyrus3. I'm sorry to hear that you're living in such fear. Is it death itself you're afraid of or pain?