Shame on you, Scottish Parliament

MayBee70

Yes. We don’t let them suffer because we love them.

"We" may not, but economic euthanasia very much exists, especially when people cannot afford vet bills. Many people simply have no choice but to agree to an earlier death for their pet than necessary as they can't afford the treatment that would prolong their life.
That's another reason people are against the Right to Die type bills, that this may become a consideration in human euthanasia.

Greyhounds are often abandoned when they are past their best.
People who rescue dogs wrongly dismiss greyhounds as they believe they need loads of exercise
One of my neighbours fosters greyhounds some never get fehomed many are putto sleep even though they are healthy

This is one of the reasons behind the racing bill.
The Abortion bill is not dissimilar to that in England .Abortions for exceptional circumstances are permitted up until 24 weeks or later if the mothers life is at risk.
My mother had a pregnancy in the 1960,s that almost killed her ,my father had to argue with doctors and a priest to save her life and not the baby …thankfully his threat of a lawyer worked .
Is that what we want to return to? I was old enough to remember her blue lighted with police escorts to hospital and I had 3 sisters …we would have been left without a mum and the baby might not have survived .
Abortion is sometimes a necessity ,it’s not something most women are happy to have to do .

All I know is that, now I’m old I’m going to die sooner rather than later. And, if I knew I could have a painless death at a time of my choosing I wouldn’t think or worry about it. As it stands now I do worry about what I will feel if I become ill.

But we can't implement policy because it would work for us we have to think of the wider implications of policy.

I’m not just thinking of myself, though. I’m thinking of other people in that situation eg Esther Rantzen.

My mum is 95. She does not need palliative care BUT - she does want to die. She has had enough.
She is blind in one eye and partially
sighted in the other - so no longer able
to read.
Incontinence is a problem, so she has to wear pads - the indignity and embarassment is torture for her.
Due to balance and mobility problems she is unable to leave her home, so her world is confined to two rooms.
Unable to cook so she relies on a care team, who are excellent - but her lack of independence upsets her greatly.
All her friends and relatives have died.
She would as she puts it " happily take a pill if one was offered "
People should be allowed to choose their time of going. A compassionate society should be able to deal with this. To leave people like my mum in an unhappy, undignified state is unkind and cowardly.

CarDriver you have described so well your Mum’s situation and how I agree with her that enough is enough.

I hope in my lifetime there will be an opportunity for those who want it to ‘take a pill’ as your mum said, is a reality.

We need both: the right to die and first class palliative care for all. I suspect our politicians will provide neither and that only the wealthy will be able to access either. The rest of us have to suffer.

And yet, and yet…my 98yo mum is in a care home with all the issues apart from blindness that Cardriver mentions but she wants to carry on living. She says she wants to see the great-grandchildren grow up as much as possible. Personally, I’d hate to live as she lives, within four walls and as she refuses to engage with other residents she only communicates with the carers. Otoh, I wouldn’t want anyone to put pressure on her to ‘do the decent thing’, especially now her self-funding has run out and the tax payer will be subsidising her.

I am glad the bill is not succeeding. I didn't chose when to be born and don't think I should choose when to get someone else to help me die
That’s exactly how I feel Keepingquiet I m not really a religious person but somehow I don’t feel I have the right or the ability to make that decision and cannot justify it being put on someone else’s shoulders, especially someone I love.
When my Dad was in his last weeks the doctors put him on morphine and this was upped if the pain came through I believe that’s how he passed he just slept for about a week. My mum was very similar but only 48 hours after a heart attack and end stage dementia . They were 90 and 92
For my Nan, her doctor just said he wouldn’t prescribed anti biotics, she died very peacefully a few days later. These were not decades ago Mum and Dad twelve years ago.
I would never be able to make the decision for myself, however ill I was as I always see the positive and would think I ll probably feel a bit better tomorrow I would never be able to make that last move however much pain I was in.

I am also conflicted.
I really do not want to see anyone suffer, but how often do you hear elderly women say " I don't want to be a bother...." do not want to bother the doctor, feel overlooked lonely and ignored, have decisions made for them due to lack of confidences? We hear of homes sold over the heads of the elderly and children taking control of money. Something of a short step to "time to go". Depression and internet encouragement is already a major cause of suicide.

It makes me think to abortion legislation. We introduced this on the back of women dying because they could not medically undergo childbirth, of children being raped - yes, it was going to be the exception when medical needs must. Now it is a standard means of contraception, and girls can be less reticent sexually and men can be lazier because there is always the morning after pill or an abortion to be had on demand.

The case for assisted dying, like it was for abortion, is based on the worst and needy cases, but how long before it becomes a standard way of easing the nuisance, lingering, needy elderly and infirm out of existence? Or simply those who cannot afford care?

Then how long before we drift into the Nazi mindset? It was not just Jewish people, it was the elderly, the mentally impaired, the congenitally different who were sent too.

Nobody suffers in pain (a morphine dose is increased to cope, right up to the point where it can hinder breathing already), and technology helps the weakened ( Stephen Hawking comes to mind), gene therapy advances daily too.

FranP it's that slippery slope that concerns me. This bill has more holes than my colander. The safeguards seem non-existent, such was the hurry to introduce and progress it. It should never in a thousand years have been introduced as a private member's bill, it needed to be a government sponsored bill which would have afforded it enough time for prope debate. It is no wonder so many amendments were tabled, which will likely mean it runs out of time.

*proper, sorry don't know where the second r went!

I am obviously referring to the assisted dying bill's progress through the Lords.

“Nobody suffers in pain”.

That is just so not true. I know it’s comforting to think that because it’s frightening to think otherwise.

But it’s a fallacy that shouldn’t be used as a reason for opposing assisted dying. If it’s to be a valid decision either way I believe it must be based on evidence and fact.

Nobody suffers in pain (a morphine dose is increased to cope, right up to the point where it can hinder breathing already)

A medical professional would risk being struck off if they administered that much morphine as it could be construed as assisted dying.

Totally agree, Lathyrus3 - it's just not true to say that nobody suffers in pain. Just last year, I watched my FiL ensure more than three weeks of absolute agony after he simply stopped eating or drinking. He was begging to die - it was heartbreaking for family members to hear him say that, and despite our pleas to the staff at the care home and doctors, there was nothing anyone could - or seemed prepared to do - to ease his suffering. No-one should have to endure an end like that.

No-one should have to endure an end like that.

I agree.

Watching my father was heartbreaking.
My mother got pneumonia which was a gentler way to go.

Pneumonia aka 'the old man's friend'.

keepingquiet

I am glad the bill is not succeeding. I didn't chose when to be born and don't think I should choose when to get someone else to help me die.

I would hate to put that responsibility on someone else's shoulders.

Why should have a right to choose- I see this as very selfish really?

What many have said about better palliative care I agree with- no one should suffer to the extent that they want someone else to help them die.

The bill was badly thought out and badly conceived.

What is very selfish is believing that everyone else ought to adhere to our own personal wishes or beliefs. If you don’t want to end your life, no-one is forcing you to. If I want to end mine, complete strangers with no knowledge of my life are forcing me to live.

Basgetti

keepingquiet

I am glad the bill is not succeeding. I didn't chose when to be born and don't think I should choose when to get someone else to help me die.

I would hate to put that responsibility on someone else's shoulders.

Why should have a right to choose- I see this as very selfish really?

What many have said about better palliative care I agree with- no one should suffer to the extent that they want someone else to help them die.

The bill was badly thought out and badly conceived.

What is very selfish is believing that everyone else ought to adhere to our own personal wishes or beliefs. If you don’t want to end your life, no-one is forcing you to. If I want to end mine, complete strangers with no knowledge of my life are forcing me to live.

Well put.

Yes, Maybee, in that case 'The old person's friend'.

What is very selfish is believing that everyone else ought to adhere to our own personal wishes or beliefs. If you don’t want to end your life, no-one is forcing you to. If I want to end mine, complete strangers with no knowledge of my life are forcing me to live.

Yes! I watched my Grandfather die on the Liverpool pathway. He drowned in his own pneumonia which was distressing for me but barbaric for him. Euthanasia would have been so much easier for him.

Treatment will be withdrawn for my Mum the moment she gets something which requires her to go to hospital and she will receive end of life care. This may or may not cause her suffering. I do not want this for her. As a family we all agree that she is already suffering enough now. She wouldn't be covered by the Act so for me, the Act didn't go far enough.

Allira

^Nobody suffers in pain (a morphine dose is increased to cope, right up to the point where it can hinder breathing already)^

A medical professional would risk being struck off if they administered that much morphine as it could be construed as assisted dying.

This isn't strictly true- it is a very grey area and a very different issue from the assisted dying debate.

As a nurse I administered morphine to dying patients often, it was always an act of compassion to keep patients pain free and comfortable.

keepingquiet

Allira

Nobody suffers in pain (a morphine dose is increased to cope, right up to the point where it can hinder breathing already)

A medical professional would risk being struck off if they administered that much morphine as it could be construed as assisted dying.

This isn't strictly true- it is a very grey area and a very different issue from the assisted dying debate.

As a nurse I administered morphine to dying patients often, it was always an act of compassion to keep patients pain free and comfortable.

I know. This happened with my father (thank goodness) but the weeks before were dreadful.

Agree with all comments about hospices struggling to provide palliative care and the need for full funding. As a psychotherapist in private practice I did volunteering in what was my local hospice at the time for a good number of years and was astonished to learn of the meagre levels of public funding allocated which are totally eaten up by salaries to the doctors and nurses and a small layer of administrative staff. In total only one third of the cost of providing the services was underwritten by the NHS. The organisation ran (still does) on an absolute ocean of volunteers, many highly skilled professional people (retired and otherwise) offering several hours of their time weekly to support their community. Whilst this is an applaudable contribution, I don't believe it should be necessary to the extent that it is. The whole charity shop wing is an industry in itself - yes it achieves recycling objectives and provides people with a sense of purpose in running shops etc., but the question can be asked as to how much the efficiency of the general hospice sector fund-raising machine sends the wrong messages to governments in terms of what can really be provided for the growing population of people who need palliative care.