How can I be expected to pay £ 1,000 per month top up for my father.

While I can see where you're coming from flick and I admire the fight you put up, there is a valid point being made. Why should somebody with a £600,00 house expect the state to pick up the bill?

sandra52, well done, I too dug my toes in and refused to be pushed around by social services, but getting the best care arrangements for the elderly in need in our families should not depend on how mentally strong and blody minded the carer is. Not everybody has the knowledge and mental strength to battle with Social Services while also dealing with a crisis situation in an elderly relations life.

Hi FlickertyB

I can see what you are saying.
By standing my ground I have kept the house and was able to visit Dad most days.
It was a 30 mile round trip plus other mileage to get clothes etc so my car was doing about 15,000 miles a year.
At least I was able to use his money to pay for the fuel etc and it was less of a worry when he broke his glasses on 2 occasions.
I was also able to take him a treat in every time I visited.

As Bill says Social Services are strapped for cash. They will do anything they can to get members of the family to bear the burden of the cost of caring for a family member, physically and financially. This includes telling lies and emotional blackmail.

When you are crushed by concern for your relations and frequently stressed and exhausted by everything is the ideal time for them to put the boot in because you are more likely to give way.

Contact your local branch of Age UK. They will be able to give you all the help and advice you need and most of the larger Age UK offices also have an Advocacy Service where someone can stand by you and help and advise.

Do I sound bitter? Yes of course I do. I have been through it twice. I would sooner die in a gutter than ask any Social Services department for help.

Hi petra

I got early retirement at 55 and was widowed. My mother had also passed away but had left me her share of the house and I owned half the house Dad was living in.
As I lived 30 miles from my father we decided it was best my house was sold and I went to live with him.
5 years later my father got dementia and care had to be arranged.
When I first saw the social worker at about 10 am she said that as I had inherited half the house from my mother that half would have to be returned to my father and the house would have to be sold.
I knew my half could not be taken but I just said my father was entitled to NHS funding and I was going to see a solicitor.
I arranged an appointment for mid day the next day and her manager came on the phone and offered to let me keep half the house.
By that time I had read Age Concern factsheet 38 and realised the house could not be touched as I was a joint owner and I was 60 and I just said I wanted NHS funding.
The next morning another manager came on the phone and admitted the house could not be touched as I was a joint resident owner but said my fathers savings and pension would be taken.
I said I was still going to see a solicitor.
On my way to the solicitor my mobile phone went and the Continueing Care Nurse said my father was eligible for NHS funding.
Sadly my father passed away in February but I am still in the house and I am now a full owner.
A point I have also found was the house should have been disregarded anyway as I was my father's carer.
I did meet the social worker on a few occasions and she said it was wrong that somebody who had half ownership of a £600,000 house should have their care paid for by the NHS.
I offered to pay the solicitor for the appointment which never happened but he would not take any money but said his favourite charity was McMillan so I sent a donation on his behalf.

We are so lucky. My Husbands late step Father made a will that stated that when he died my Husbands Mother could live in the house but her 4 sons owned it.
All my Mother in laws pension goes to the home but they can't touch the house.

Hi icare

I know Jane 1945 could negotiate with the care home to bring the fees down by a certain amount.
Obviously the NHS has placed the father in that home for some reason.
It appears they are trying to get Jane1945 to pay as her father has high care needs.
Top ups are supposed to be voluntary if the relatives wants the relative in a better home etc.
If Jane's father does not qualify for NHS funding in a years time the council should find him a home at their usual rate or they should pay the extra.

Miranda

One strategy that people can adopt to save on care home fees, including top-ups, is to negotiate the cost of their care before they move into a home. Local councils always negotiate with care homes and on average save £100 a week. Private residents hardly ever negotiate and end up paying more for exactly the same service. I’ve had plenty of experience of doing this and it works.

I do know a social worker who moved in with her mother after inheriting her father's half of the property. It was a house worth at least £500,000 at the time.
Her mother had to go into care a few years later.
I noticed the Social Worker stayed in the property and downsized about 3 years after her mother passed away.
I know she could not legally be forced to sell it to pay her mother's care fees but she was telling people in a similar situation they should.

Bill

Social workers are under enormous pressure from their line managers to stay within budget - the irony is that there is a legal obligation for them to ASSESS people's needs, but no legal obligation to MEET those needs. In law they cannot take the budget into account when assessing needs, but the reality is that this is in everyone's mind. When the community care act came there were many fine words, but all of us SWs on the ground said that it would only work if there were sufficient funds in the LA budgets. Prior to this time, residential and nursing home fees were paid via the social security budget and were based solely on income - the fee came from national coffers and if you were eligible you got it. Community care was basically a way of introducing rationing - it was sold as a means of making sure that only those who had real care needs were supported by the state and also as a way of being locally responsive - it was in fact simply rationing by another name.

I share concerns about social work training - I was involved in training SWs on placement - I cannot tell you how exasperated I became by the quality of the students - some truly were dim. I will say no more - it is too embarrassing as an ex-SW.

Hi jeni

I do think Social Workers know the council / nhs will have to pay if the relatives refuse.

Really I think they first ask if the person owns a house and then try to persuade the relatives to pay.

Social Services only pay as a last resort.

Bill

Hi j04

I see what you are saying but I started life in a council house and got myself a private house which is now fully paid for and have helped my 2 children to buy a house each and they are 90% paid for.
If the children of parents who lived in council houses who made the effort to buy houses had to sell them to fund their parents care there will be no insentive for them to get good jobs and not be reliant on the state / council.
I have got a reasonable pension / and a reasonably expensive house but not a lot in savings.
I may decide to downsize in the future and use some of the money to enjoy my retirement and to give more help to my children.
I am not prepared to let money which myself and my late wife built up to go on paying for the care of my father.
It is the responsibility of the NHS / Council to keep dangerous people off the streets.

Bill

A lot of social workers these days appear to be very poorly taught. My experience is that their knowledge of entitlement for benefits is nonexistent
What training are they given these days? Any?

Agreed - but what is it with some of these Social Workers? We keep hearing on this forum from people who've been told outright that they, the relatives, are under an obligation to pay top-up fees for their elderly parent's care, when it seems that they are not. Are they told to do this, in the hope that some people will actually pay up? It seems a very cynical and unethical way of doing things.

I suppose local authorities haven't got a bottomless pit of money.

Hi Jane

The following link may be useful:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1608831/When-care-home-top-up-fees-are-illegal.html

Your situation sounds similar to what I had with my father.
He attacked 2 nurses and a visitor.
When I saw the Social Worker she asked if he had a house and I told her he lived with me and I own the house.
She recognised the road which generally has some up market houses and at first sugested I paid the fees and downsize my house if necessary.
I just turned round and said no and she then asked me what was my father supposed to do as he could seriously injure or even kill a child.
I knew they could not let him out on the streets and just told her the hospital would have to sort the situation out.
About 20 homes visited him and none would take him.
In the meantime I found out the NHS was responsible for his welfare.
The Social Worker then said that we were entitled to basic Council Funding but if I paid a top up there was a far higher chance of finding a care home.
Knowing the hospital could not just let him go onto the street I just refused to pay and threated legal action if he did not get full NHS funding.
About 20 more homes visited him and one home was willing to take him.
Full NHS funding was agreed but the Social Worker even then came back and said it was wrong I was living in an expensive property and expecting the NHS to foot the bill.
My view is my house does not belong to my father and I was not held liable for any of his fees and I think he would have been in the same nursing home had I paid.

Bill

Well, they could only do that if the local authority weren't going to continue paying the full amount, for one of the reasons given in Mishap's post. It would be the local authority that asked for the top-up fees.

This is extremely worrying. Bearing in mind MISHAPs excellent information, is it not possible that unscrupulous "home owners" (meaning the owner of the Home) could assess what they believe to be the status of the relatives (for example they look well off or whatever) and then deliberately ask for top up payments knowing you would not wish to disrupt elderly relatives by moving them again.

The social worker is out of order here.
He/she has no way of knowing what your father's care needs might be in 12 months' time. Being realistic, they are more likely to increase rather than decrease, and this means he would still be eligible for NHS funding.

The critical factor is are his needs care needs or nursing/medical needs. If the latter apply now it is likely to apply in a year's time, given that he is elderly.

I think you should go to your local Citizen's Advice bureau or a solicitor about this, so that you have clarity and the worry is not hanging over your head. SSD's do have the right to ask for top-up from a relative or other third party if they the cost of the care exceeds the amount that they are willing to pay, but, as I understand it, they cannot force you to do so and it is a voluntary agreement. However, if no third-party is available to make up the difference, they may insist that the individual goes into a cheaper home that comes within the SSD's limits.

I have copied some useful extracts for you below, but the most important thing to remember is that, sadly, elderly people's conditions tend to deteriorate so it is very unlikely that he will cease to be eligible for NHS funding and the problem should not arise..............................

Top-up fees

The local authority may also agree to pay for a place in a more expensive home if a third party, such as a family member or a charity, agrees to pay the difference. This is often called a top-up fee and in most cases it cannot be paid by the resident.

The amount of the top-up fee is the difference between what the local authority would usually expect to pay (depending on that particular person's care needs) and the extra cost of the care home.

Guidance states that if a top-up is agreed, the local authority remains responsible for all of the care home fees and must contract with the care home to pay these fees in full. The local authority can ask the third party to pay their contribution to the home directly or to themselves. However, the local authority is still responsible for the full cost of the accommodation if the top-up is not paid.

If you agree to pay a top-up fee it is advisable to get a written agreement with the local authority, the home and the resident. The agreement should include information about what will happen with rises in the cost of the care home and what would happen if the fees are not paid.

If top-up fees are not maintained, the local authority may move the person to a home within their budget. However, the person's needs must be met by this new home. To avoid the risk of disruption this could cause, it is important to make sure that you will be able to pay the top-up fees for as long as they are needed, and that you are prepared for possible fee increases.

Guidance states that local authorities should only seek top-up payments where there was a genuine alternative of a cheaper care home (within the local authority's budget) that would have met the person's needs and this home was turned down by the person with dementia or their family. The guidance also states that a local authority cannot ask for a top-up if it has decided to offer someone a place in more expensive accommodation in order to meet their assessed needs.

Will the person's relatives be liable?

When a local authority in England or Wales assesses the amount that the person with dementia should contribute to care, it should consider the income and savings of that individual only. Old rules in England and Wales that allowed local authorities to charge a husband, wife or civil partner were repealed on 6 April 2009.

See also this link for useful sources of advice: http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=125

It is the relevant page of the Alzheimers Society - but the same rules apply whether someone has a dementia illness or not.

Yes. That's the bit I mean Anagram. Let's hope a charity can be found to help!

Advice from Age UK definitely needed.

It does actually mention third party top-ups that may be needed if the only accommodation available is higher in price than the local authorities 'usual rates'. But, apparently you can apply to a charity for help with this.

Definitely contact Age UK.

i.e. it doesn't make clear how a relative's eligibility to pay is decided.

This bit worries me, though:

Council ‘usual rates’ sometimes bear no relationship to local market prices so there may be no places in an area at the council’s usual rate. In these instances councils will ask for third party top-ups – which can be paid for by relatives or charities.

this might be helpful

It doesn't sound as though local authorities can ask for money towards care costs from anyone other than the person needing the care. And if they have no money, then the local authority has to pay.

Jane, I've been involved with two family members in care homes and a couple of questions spring to mind.

Is your father paying his own care costs? If he has savings or property over a certain amount then he will either have to pay full costs or a contribution. If his savings/income is less than approx £12.5K then Social Services should fund his care but they will only pay a certain amount per week.

If the home he is currently in is above their limit then that might be why they are mentioning money.

I have to complete an annual funding form for my family member and then the costs are worked out for the year. She is aware that once she becomes fully funded then she will have to move to a smaller room within her current home as there will be no spare money to pay the extra for a larger room.

Speak with Age Concern about this and try not to worry too much, if you can.