Joint bank accounts

In England, the La assume any money in joint accounts is half and half. Therefore, if the account had £100k in £50k would be 'allocated' to your sister and used for her fees.

At the next review, usually a year later, the same thing will happen. So, if £20k has been been spent, the remaining £80k will be split in two again meaning that the husband has actually paid for half your sister's fees.

Arguments can be made about who contributed what proportion over the years.

AgeUk have good downloads available on line. CAB can advise too.

Kittylester I’ve been googling this subject halfway through the night and think it would be wise to open an account only for sister in law. Her husband could have his own account. Her pensions and half her savings from their joint account would then go into her own account. The care Home fees would come straight out of her account.

That seems sensible.

They can use half of all savings .House is untouched unless sold

If you are aged 65 or over, and have been assessed as in need of personal and nursing care, you will have the first £216 per week of the care home’s fees paid by the social work service. You will only be expected to contribute towards the remaining cost of the care. These remaining care costs, over and above any entitlement to free personal and nursing care, are called the ‘hotel’ or ‘accommodation’ costs of the care home.

Age Scotland - its fact sheets have information on paying for care homes, or phone their helpline on 0800 12 44 222

I’m okay about the costs of care homes as I used to work in the field as they say. It’s the bank accounts which need to be sorted out. Do you know if the Office of the Public Guardian will let us open an individual account for my sister in law so that all her own money can be better seen without the confusion of joint accounts. Her pensions can therefore go in it and the care costs can come out. This would then let her husband know exactly what his income/expenditure is if the joint accounts are separated out. As you say half goes to her and half goes to him.

Has someone got Poa? Does your sister have mental capacity? I understand that the office of the public guardian is very helpful. Also look at AgeUk downloads.

On a cautionary note, any “last minute” bank account changes will be uncovered when a patient’s needs are assessed and you have to plan several years ahead.
From what you say, Elizabeth1 your in-laws may have left this too late.

We are also considering having individual Bank Accounts but for a different reason. Since we married we have had a joint Current Account and Savings Account, which has never been a problem until recently when twice I have not been allowed to set up a DD without both signatures on the form. Currently DH (who has Dementia) will sign anything I put before him, but he is becoming increasingly reluctant to sign anything he does not understand and his 'signature' seldom bears any resemblance to the one the Banks have on file.

Granny 23 if you go to your bank you can change this so either can set up a DD. It would need both your signatures though

Maw is quite right but if there is evidence of how the savings have accrued and how the finances have worked previously, there should be no problem.

Deprivation of Assets is viewed very seriously and the LA can investigate further if they suspect that.

Granny23 have you got Power of Attorney set up?

We've just changed banks and, although we have separate ISAs and savings accounts, our current account (where pensions go in) is joint.
POAs in place for quite a while. Must say, I hadn't thought of this. As you say must do so now before it becomes a problem. Thanks for advice about Age UK downloads.

Yes I have POA but have never had this problem before. Our accounts have always been on a jointly and severally basis and I have always done the banking by myself with just the one signature. This was not our Bank but rather the receiving Bank who returned the DD form demanding the seconded signature. Bit Ironic really as the DD was to pay Alzheimers for DH's once a week day care - you would think they would be aware of the problems involved in getting a signature.

It is absolutely crucial to know (in England anyway) that a bank can freeze a joint account if they find out that one account holder has lost mental capacity. It's doesn't happen if there is a registered PoA in place. This happened to someone we know and partner couldn't access joint a/c even to withdraw own money as they didn't have PoA!

That's why I asked!

Sorry too late to get POA it’s now into Guardianship

I have phoned my bank who confirmed that all their Joint Accounts can be operated on an either or basis with only one signature required. However, they said it has become increasingly common for some other banks to demand both signatures when setting up a DD or making a large i.e. £thousands, transaction. No choice but to comply. He said not to worry if DH's signature did not match the sample held by the bank as these are never checked?!?!?!

Also strongly advised to keep the joint accounts rather than separate ones to avoid problems should one party die or be declared 'without capacity' which would lead to their account being frozen, whereas a joint account would still be accessible by the survivor.

Good to hear about the DDs Granny23.

It's my understanding that PoA is in place for when a person lacks capacity and joint accounts can be frozen if someone is deemed to lack capacity unless there is PoA in place.

Unless the law is markedly different in Scotland.

The law is different in Scotland. In England and Wales banks have the discretion to freeze an account if they learn that one party has lost mental capacity and the other doesn't have PoA. Info on BBA.org website.