Query re attendance allowance

The difficulty growstuff is the definition of needing help. A person may not need someone to physically support them and guide them to the loo, but, getting up at night, when people are half asleep and dozy is a prime time for falls - and a lot of people do fall in those circumstances. Bed clothes can fall off the bed or get tangled and the person concerned may not have the strength to get them back on the bed properly.

This is the thing with AA, you need to think all around the problem. A visit to the loo starts when you feel the need and doesn't end until you are safely in bed and asleep again, and as I found, so often, with clients, they simply did not recognise their need because it had crept on them so slowly they hadn't realised.

So the fact that someone says they do not have a need, often means that there is actually a need but that they have not recognised it.

You have been very fortunate Isummer - in the last year of his life, my DH already diagnosed with terminal cancer was admitted to hospital several times and not once did I get any information about AA. I probably wouldn’t have bothered with it anyway having been turned down for Carer’s Allowance for my disabled daughter after 2 applications and an appeal many years ago. That process absolutely sickened me when I saw how many people seemed to get it because they knew how to answer the questions - don’t shoot me - but I have a friend who claims it for her son, who lives 40 miles away who she only sees once a fortnight - another story. My late MIL also got AA at the lowest level (all changed now) after a short stay in hospital. Someone there filled the forms in for her, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with her. Her family were disgusted with her because she could well afford any help had she needed it.

This is difficult. I used to fill in these forms for young disabled adults and it was a question, not of lying, but of understanding the criteria and the decision process to make sure that the situation was absolutely clear - sometimes someone would say No to a question and, when I quizzed them a bit, it would become clear that the answer should be Yes.

But if you feel that some of the answers were simply not true then I think you should speak to them about it, as it is clearly making you feel uncomfortable.

However please first think it through in detail - you do not have to be actually receiving the help you feel you need, you just have to have that need. You say that you do not need help going to the loo at night ..... but is it difficult to get out of bed maybe? Help with bodily functions does not necessarily mean you need someone to wipe your bum, but can mean that getting your pants up and down is painful for some reason. Have a really good think about this before doing anything, or get back to Age UK and ask them to go through it with you so that you can fully understand the reason behind each answer. They understand how these things are interpreted by the decision makers and will know what is acceptable and comes within the criteria and what does not.

Good posts monica.

Very judgemental posts, gsd.

Thanks MOnica, for understanding and for your clear explanations.
Thanks also GSD for putting the legal side into perspective.
I'll put all this to the nice lady from DWP when she contacts me and try to explain exactly how much help I need, without exaggerating or putting on the 'brave little old lady' face.

ExDancer

Well!
Your answers made me ponder, and I've re read the letter over and over again, its the bit that assumes I need help for 'personal care' that bothers me. Because I don't need help with personal care, its practical care I need.
I rang DWP and she's suspended payment and will go through things and get in touch.
I honestly don't think i qualify
We'll see.

So glad you rang.

I admire your honesty ExDancer and hope you can clear it up with DWP.
Out of interest for anyone diagnosed with a terminal illness who needs personal care it may not be necessary to complete all the forms and you may be fast tracked for the higher allowance under the special rules.

M0nica Mon 06-Jun-22 17:10:49

Such a useful post M0nica. It's a bit of a minefield - looking at yourself as someone else might do. I agree that what was written on the form is unlikely to have been wrong. It's difficult, sometimes, to see ourselves as others see us. We can all get stubbornly determined to believe we are "managing".

Ex-dancer, go back to Age UK, they will understand the predicament you are in and help you deal with it.

I am also sure that DWP are quite used to getting phone calls from people like you, who are given AA and then worry about it.

What DWP will be looking for is not so much what help you need, if your need was high you would be having carers coming in, and as I said above, this benefit is to cover the grey areas, where you can manage without a carer but could be in danger from hurting yourself, or struggling to complete things on your own compared with someone who is fully fit.

As i said, going to the loo at night, may increase the danger of falls on the way there and back, your duvet may fall off the bed and you may have difficulty getting it back on, this could lead to you getting hypothermia, in cold weather.

If it takes you over an hour to get up and get dressed in the morning and you then need to sit down for an hour to recover, then you need help. The fact that you can get into and out of a bath, but it is difficult, what is the danger of you slipping and if you end up on you back in the bath, can you get out?

Would you like me to discuss this with you through PMs, because I am very happy to do so.

Germanshepherdsmum

I have my difficulties due to arthritis and asthma and get around them. It’s a way of life. Surely if people are coping satisfactorily and safely without outside help they shouldn’t be entitled to benefits?

There is a financial reason for keeping people independant GSM. If, for instance, the council puts in a wet room it can cost what seems like a great deal. I know when they put one in for my mother I was quite stunned at the cost they were willing to pay*. The person who came to assess it (it was on a recommendation from a needs assessment) said that if it helped my mother stay at home for four years they would consider the cost recovered. My mother was 84 at the time and didn't go into a home until she was 98.

Simply helping people so they don't fall will save a huge amount.

*This was done on a combination of income and disability but the theory of investment to save is the same.

It is quite difficult for many people to admit to needing help which is why people who help are trained to discover this and fill the forms properly. My DM and my MiL (died many years ago) needed help with the forms. MiL, who had cancer and was physically unable to get clothes on and off said to the doctor who was examining her for AA "yes I can get dressed and undressed on my own" and she couldn't. Same with other questions. DM similar - registered blind and "yes I can do all that" - sorry no it's me that is doing it.

I too have helped with filling in this form many times and while the person sometimes doesn't realise that they are as disabled as they are it does explain very clearly on the form what is required for this benefit to be given. I used to say to the person that we would include information as to how they were on their 'bad days'. It specifies 'care needs' which means 'help or supervision'. 'Help means physical help, guidance or encouragement from someone else so you can do the task'. The tasks referred to are relating to personal care eg dressing, feeding, toileting, taking medication etc If the OP feels that is the case then she should get the benefit. I did find it harder to get the full benefit (inc night) for people as most did not require assistance or supervision when the initial application was made but if they deteriorated a further application could be made to take account of the change in condition. Most of my clients had mental health issues although as many were elderly they experienced physical problems too. It is not means tested and once given you can use it for whatever you like but unfortunately needing help with gardening and cleaning alone is not a reason for getting this benefit. I am glad that OP is questioning it as she has signed to say what was written was correct. She may well have issues that would indicate that she has the care needs listed in the documentation but it will give her peace of mind to get it double checked.

I am glad Exdancer rang, she is clearly uncomfortable what has been written and I think if she had not made the call it would play on her mind and worry her.

Germanshepherdsmum

I have my difficulties due to arthritis and asthma and get around them. It’s a way of life. Surely if people are coping satisfactorily and safely without outside help they shouldn’t be entitled to benefits?

Not true....attendance allowance is same as pip....if you ate struggling to complete daily activities of living safely, reliably or in a times manner then OP likelybto qualify....I get Personal independence allowance although I still work and was working full time when awarded it

Timely manner

I think GSM is confusing 'coping ' with 'coping satisfactorily and safely'

Plenty of people are coping, but neither satisfactorily nor safely The purpose of AA is to help this group make life more satisfactory and safer.

Quite, monica.

Beautful

Personally I would contact the correct department & tell them ... someone may need it more than you ... how many more people get the allowance when not entitled to it ... also how do you know someone will not contact them to say you don't need the help ... then fraud comes into it
... in the end your decision ... but ... I know what I would do

I would imagine many people need it 'more' than OP.... in that they have higher needs...doesn't mean that OP isn't entitled to it too

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m so very sorry. Glad your husband has received some financial assistance.
Best wishes, look after yourself.
?

Thank you, I am trying to use some of the money to get a gardener as impossible for me to cope with it. But its so hard this time of year.

Thankfully my assets are such that I wouldn't qualify for benefits anyway. It horrifies me to think that the problems I have, which I have grown to live with and cope with (perfectly satisfactorily in my view) over many years - asthma from childhood, osteoarthritis since 21 - might entitle me to benefits. I have adapted and it would be totally wrong, in my view, for me to receive money from the taxpayer if I did not have assets above the benefits threshold. I have always, in every way, cut my (physical and financial) cloth according to my means. In short, I MAKE myself do things. I was brought up with the phrase 'no such word as can't' and it has served me well.

Attendance Allowance is not means-tested.

My mum was very much of your attitude, GSM, but she did not have your financial assets, though was not poor enough to be entitled to Pension Credit. She reached the point where she was actually not coping, though would not admit it.
When she did eventually get AA, she did not use the money to pay for care, or a cleaner, as by then she felt she could not cope with anyone in her house, disturbing her arrangements.

She had a home help once a fortnight, who helped her change the bed, then stayed for a cup of tea and a chat which was of more value to her than housework. The council provided a
“ bath nurse” for a while, but when that was withdrawn, Mum did not have a bath or shower, ever.
She coped, in her own way, but was still entitled to AA.
It helped pay her fees when she went into a care home for the last months of her life.

I have never understand wy some people almost feel a pride in not applying for benefits they qualify for..

All through our lives we pay taxes to ensure that all of us can access the allowances and benefits we need when we need them.

It is like paying out for house insurance all your life and then when your house burns down not claiming on the insurance because you have enough money to rebuild the house without making a claim.

In fact I think, and in my experience, people find alls sorts of good reasons for not applying for Attendance Allowance, mainly because applying for it means coming to terms with the fact that the physical or mental problems they have are now so severe, that they are being given financial help because it means facing up tot the fact that they are disabled and need other peoples help in some way.

I fully understand why people feel like that, you think you are doing fine, a bit creaky, and unable to get out into the garden - but disabled? No, thats the old man across the road, ny neighbours mother, not me.

I have a friend going through this stage at the moment, I will help her with her AA form when she is ready.

The reason AA is not means tested nor prescriptive about what you do with it is for the very reasons that Cabbie21 outlines in her post. There was very little that could be done to help her problem, but the mental lift given to her, by someone else coming into the house, ostensibly to help, but also sitting down and chatting, was immeasurable.

When I went round visiting people at home to help complete AA forms, I was absolutely amazed and at times, amused by the things that people spent their AA money on, but in every case it made their life easier, or bearable in some way - and that is the point of it.

I have osteo arthritis like GSM I have had to learn to adapt. Summer is fine for me, but Winter can be difficult, one day while walking back to the car after shopping, I had to ease myself into the seat and lift my legs in. I managed to drive home, and it took a couple of hours in the warm for the pain and stiffness to go.
I will not claim AA as I do not need personnel care. The OP circumstances will be different to mine, everyone's is different, I hope OP is successful in her claim as she clearly needs help but is honest enough to say not personal care.
Like GSM I will adapt.

Germanshepherdsmum

Thankfully my assets are such that I wouldn't qualify for benefits anyway. It horrifies me to think that the problems I have, which I have grown to live with and cope with (perfectly satisfactorily in my view) over many years - asthma from childhood, osteoarthritis since 21 - might entitle me to benefits. I have adapted and it would be totally wrong, in my view, for me to receive money from the taxpayer if I did not have assets above the benefits threshold. I have always, in every way, cut my (physical and financial) cloth according to my means. In short, I MAKE myself do things. I was brought up with the phrase 'no such word as can't' and it has served me well.

Well good for you if thats how you choose to live .....Ibut no one should feel like they have to be a martyr to their ailments ....I take what I'm entitled to even though I work....there is no threshold for AA ....same as PIP which I receive ( I'm too young for AA) ....these benefits are not means tested......seems ridiculous to be too proud to claim a benefit

Germanshepherdsmum

Thankfully my assets are such that I wouldn't qualify for benefits anyway. It horrifies me to think that the problems I have, which I have grown to live with and cope with (perfectly satisfactorily in my view) over many years - asthma from childhood, osteoarthritis since 21 - might entitle me to benefits. I have adapted and it would be totally wrong, in my view, for me to receive money from the taxpayer if I did not have assets above the benefits threshold. I have always, in every way, cut my (physical and financial) cloth according to my means. In short, I MAKE myself do things. I was brought up with the phrase 'no such word as can't' and it has served me well.

Mmm. Haven't you read the other posts GSM. Many people "MAKE" themselves "do" things. That doesn't mean it is a good thing or that their care or hospitalisation will "cost" less in the long run.

Sometimes I have to work very hard not to wish bad and irretrievable life events on other people.