Money in a joint account - whose is it when someone dies?

Have you actually spoken to him about the money in the joint account? He has no claim on it. I would let him know that you plan on carrying out your mum's wishes as originally stated by her, and if he doesn't like it, then you can go the route of assessing the house and going to a lawyer.

He spoke to me on Saturday about wanting £17.5K more money in respect of my joint account with mum. He shook me because the last time we spoke about it was back in March when I changed it over from joint names to mine ( same time as he got his settlement from the estate money in mums bank accounts.). I did tel him about the account just before Christmas when I applied for letters of administration. I told him then what the money had been for and why mum gave it me - and he agreed then it was my money.

After mum died he asked me if I was happy to share the money in mums bank accounts equally and take a fifty per cent share of the house but allow him to stay there as he didnt want to move and couldnt afford to move anyway. I agreed that I would share the bank account money with him ( £55K each) and I would not press to sell the house as long as it was put in our joint names and that way, he would get the house if I died ( and vice versa) so wouldnt have to sell it then either.

That agreement ( verbal) stood up until last Saturday when he suddenly demanded extra money for the joint account I had with mum.

My husband had a stroke caused by the hospital mis medicating him when he went for an operation back in March . He has since had a second stroke six weeks ago. Thats the only reason I had not completed changing the title deeds of the house into our joint names and had not finalised my own money from my mothers account ( putting it into my account). Had I not had that interruption all the change overs would have been made and I would probably be in a worse position as his name would be on the deeds. ( as it is they are still part of the unfinished business of my mums estate) . At least I can say I want the house sold so I can have my money . But that will cause discord I am sure. As it is I dont want to speak to him again at the moment as I am upset. I am guessing, since I was so taken aback and said nothing, he thinks I am going to pay up and all is hunky dory.

I have other idea now. I would probably have got a solicitor to change the house title deeds anyway as it happens.

I cant understand my brother because he had everything he demanded - the house to live in. Half the money. The house as his when I die. Not to mention that he was also my only family and beneficiary of my house and my savings when I die - and since he is younger than me, that would have seen him into his old age. I cannot understand why he suddenly wanted to change the agreement over this joint account , really for no gain - because I am now looking to ensure he gets nothing more . I am nothing if not loyal. Everyone who knows me knows that. I am true to my word . But if you cross me I also ensure you no longer figure in my life as he wont now.

You could actually put the house in both your names as tenants-in-common, then if you die first, your half can be left to whoever you wish- a charity perhaps. It won’t be his.
There are various implications in doing so, which you should read up on and speak to a solicitor.
Have you considered if you should need care in the future? How will you fund it? Owning another property will complicate that.
Find out about capital gains tax, inheritance tax, deprivation of assets, as well. Best to be fully informed, not just react emotionally.
In my opinion, for what it’s worth, the house should have been sold and the money split. An end to the hassle.
If he stays, your brother should be paying you rent on your half. Who is going to pay maintenance costs? Insurance, repairs? There is a lot to think about and I feel you need some objective advice before you make a big decision about the house. Your brother is manipulating and bullying.

I had not considered any of the things you mention Cabbie. I have no idea how I will finance any care I may need. I am hard pressed to pay for my husbands care - and my best guess is that will take every penny I have in savings before he passes.

I didnt want to keep mums house. I thought as mum had suggested that I would agree to "Sell" my brother the house for the money she had in the bank ( £110K) This is somewhat short of the amount the house might fetch on the open market ( Circa £350K). She knew this and in part that was why she had the joint savings bond with me - my money when she died , we both thought that and that would make out for me not getting a full whack on the house because my brother would have it. It was also back pay for all services rendered.

My brother decided he wanted ( needed?) money and wanted a split of everything and so I had to agree to keeping the house. This is useless to me as I know I can never collect on it. I have ended up effectively with half a house and £55K in cash. He has half a house which he lives in and £55K in cash, which on paper looks as if we split it all - but , as I say, I cant claim on the house. I wouldnt be able to sell it without his permission. He lives there , so I would be unlikely to get permission to sell.

Yes, I could be ,liable for maintenance too. It seems I cannot charge rent either as he is owner of half the house ( got that from a solicitor on the phone this morning)

All I had was the £70K and he has come after that - but , I am told, he cannot have that money. It is mine.

But the house is a millstone for me.

I am surprised he actually agreed ( he may still change his mind) to a joint ownership as that leaves the house as mine if I survive him ( or his if he survives me) . I guess he is gambling I will die first. I would like my share of the house back, even if its after I die, I dont want to give it to him now. Selfish I know , but he wants £17.5K from me now in addition to having the lions share of all else.

I still can’t quite understand how OP can do all she is doing when her mum died intestate.
I understand it, the estate of the deceased goes into probate, where the court will then decide who is entitled to the inheritance using intestacy laws. any assets would be shared equally between possible heirs (and not just OP. )

If they have died without a valid Will, the administrator must inform the bank of their passing, providing the death certificate as proof. Following this, the bank will freeze the account until the letters of administration have been obtained, giving the owner legal authority over the bank account.
Any court decision is binding just as when there is a will.

If the account was in your name it's your money to do with as you seem fit.

You need good legal advice now before you end up losing far more than a few hundred pounds on legal fees.

If they have died without a valid Will, the administrator must inform the bank of their passing, providing the death certificate as proof. Following this, the bank will freeze the account until the letters of administration have been obtained, giving the owner legal authority over the bank account.

ALL of that has been done. I have the letter of administration. The accounts were closed and the money in them distributed. My brother got his money. The rest is in a holding account . The house has to have its title deed changed before more can be done.

Its not quite as you say - you fill in an online form declaring all that is asked for - savings, house , etc. and give them the valuations. Three months later the letter comes back. There is no court decision. The letters alow the money in the bank to be given to the administrator ( me) and for me to distribute it in accordance with the rules - half to me half to brother.

The house isnt settled because it has to be changed into joint names before anything else can be done now. However, with a sitting occupier ( my brother), it will be hard to sell and it will take a court order ( cost to me) to remove him.

I agreed to my brothers requests because (a) I didnt want any arguments - because I am a woman and high on agreeablness and (b) I am stupid - because I am high on agreeableness and didnt want to have rows with my brother.

Aprilrose, there is nothing to stop anyone who is the joint owner of a property from severing the joint tenancy and owning the property as tenants-in-common. This can be done with or without their agreement. But there are drawbacks, as well as advantages, so it needs fully investigating.
It seems to me that, as Administrator, you are well within your rights to insist on the house being sold so that you may both benefit from your inheritance. It is not more his than yours. Though if he does carry on living there, he needs to take on the bills including insurance and the maintenance.
I am afraid that, understandably, your emotions, and the burden of caring for your husband, are preventing you from being objective. Do not do anything in haste. Seek legal advice.

If it was a straight savings account it would be what was known as " either or survivor " this used to be written on pass books held in joint names. I cannot see why a bond would be different .

Money in a joint account belongs to whoever is shown as the account holders. Legally that is the case as far as I have always understood. Your brother is lucky to still be allowed to stay in the house.

A subsidiary question. As I do not have a solicitor - the last one I used was 30 years ago and he proved to be a bit dodgy. In fact I have had two such solicitors buy only for sale/purchase of houses. ( one went to Greece to avoid a scandal and the other was struck off eventually about six years ago).

So, how do I find a solicitor and know they are OK? There are only three possibles round me anyway. One is a recent arrival , one is a firm who moved into an ex estate agents shop when it closed - they used to have an office in the estate agent for buyers who wanted a solicitor and didnt have one and the third I know has been there many years but I think is more a land agent/rural stuff.

You need a STEPsolicitor, one who specialises in wills, Probate etc.

Didn't your mother and brother live together in the house. so he did the caring. If i were him i would tell everything to the solicitor and let him sort it. Go by whats written in the will not what might have been said so cant be proved, how many times do families fall out over inheritance. It looks as if you wont have a relationship together anyway now so better just go legal route.

My brother did not do the caring. I did it. I left work to care for her in her last year. Mum was not ill before that.

He moved in ( rent free) when his marriage broke down.

My brother had a job. He worked all day. He lived with mum, but he only came home three nights a week ( to give me a break). The rest of the time he stayed over at his girlfriends.

Only one of those near me advertises as STEP. I had discounted her as she was a one -man band ( the others look bigger firms). She is also the newcomer to the town.

aprilrose

Callestemon. My brother lives in the house alone now ( with mums cat - which we both promised would have a home until she passed away) . His son lives with his mother ( brothers ex - well one of them). The boy is now 18. I dont think my brother ever thought his son should be entitled to a third. he just thought he could swing it for some money for him - and another way of getting most of the money for himself maybe? How do I know. I had no idea he would do this to me.

I always realised I would probably end up with less than my brother via the house going to him and the cash to me as mum verbally said. But now I have a house I cant do anything with without making my brother homeless and my brother made it clear he wanted half and half of everything - half the money.

I always understood that joint accounts and such automatically went to the surviving named account holder in the case of death. So, had mums account been between her and some unknown to me , the unknown of would have the money in that bond. The bank said the same when I transferred it and they said that when we opened the account.

Of course, if I found I did owe him the money I would pay it.

While I do not know the exact circumstances here, and I wish you well, I've seen these sort of things before in my old job, and it seems you are quite invested in getting the money from the account your parent put the money in. In these circumstances, I can understand why your sibling would be raising a query. Joint accounts can be either/or survivor or into an estate. You should get legal advice and be honest about the origin of the money in the account.

If one of the holders of a joint account dies, the money remaining in the account belongs to the other account holder(s).

Couples or 2 or more individuals may also have joint bank or building society accounts. If one dies, all the money will go to the surviving partner without the need for probate or letters of administration. The bank may need the see the death certificate in order to transfer the money to the other joint owner.
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and-wills/dealing-with-the-financial-affairs-of-someone-who-has-died/

aprilrose read this document and then go and see a solicitor. If you do not your brother is going to take to the cleaners and you will only have yourself to blame.

M0nica

If one of the holders of a joint account dies, the money remaining in the account belongs to the other account holder(s).

Couples or 2 or more individuals may also have joint bank or building society accounts. If one dies, all the money will go to the surviving partner without the need for probate or letters of administration. The bank may need the see the death certificate in order to transfer the money to the other joint owner.
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and-wills/dealing-with-the-financial-affairs-of-someone-who-has-died/

aprilrose read this document and then go and see a solicitor. If you do not your brother is going to take to the cleaners and you will only have yourself to blame.

Either/or survivor getting the money does not always apply. Sometimes it does but not always. The OP would be well advised to seek legal advice

OP from July, hope it’s sorted now

aprilrose

I had / have a joint account with some £70K in it which my mother and I took out in 2011. Its a savings bond. I had the money transferred into my name only when mum passed away ( using death certificate). I was under the impression that all of the money in that bond was legally mine because I was joint account holder. My brother now insists that he is entitled to £17.5K ( plus any interest - which I have never had as that went into mums account). He wants £17.5 K money from me for half of the half of the money in the bond that was mums. Is he entitled?

Back story a little - mum gave me the money after dad died and my aunt died and she got some spare cash. It was part services rendered as I worked for ten years for nothing in her shop when I was younger in the 1980's ( my brother never did that) and she didnt pay me. I also owned half a business with her for four years at a later date ( ,lock up) and some of the money was settlement from that - probably nowhere near what I should have had but thats neither here nor there.

I thought the money in that account was mine. She always had the interest paid into her own bank account when she was alive That is coming to me now. He wants a share of that interest too but he has already had half the money in mums bank accounts.

It is just this money I am interested in though.

PS - is it possible to get an online solicitor rather than seeing one? I cannot leave home as hubby had a stroke and cannot be left and I am stuck in the house now. I would rather he didnt know about this as it will upset him and stress him. Its my inheritance anyway. I have half a house as a result of mums death ( with brother - he is living there as he was before mum passed away).

I think mum always thought he would have the house ( worth more than the money in all her banks and I would have the money ( plus £70 - which would still be short of the house value but would be immediate for me rather than wrangling over the house but my brother wanted money as well as half the house but wont sell. I dont like unpleasantness and clearly he will rip me off one way or another now even though I thought he was a straight and honest bloke . But I want my money from that house protected for me and mine , not for me to die and him to roll off into the sunset with it. I need a solicitor I know but I cannot get out to see one . I need to know the options.

Mum died intestate mainly because she thought it would ensure we shared her money/house . If she wrote a will my brother was going to ensure she split it three ways to give his son a share . When you are 94 I dont think you want arguments and disagreements with someone you live with. She didnt want to split three ways and she was worried his ex wife ( now) would also come and take some of the money once she passed. ( As it happened his ex divorced him before mum passed by a fraction). So, clearly , mum had been under pressure too even though I had not realised it. Any will would have been contested had it split between me and brother - he would have done that, its clear now.

So, this is protect what I have left.

"It is just this money (the £70k) I am interested in ... this is to protect what I have". Quotes from you. I would suggest you consult a solicitor and don't try to oust your sibling out from their inheritance.

I thought I would update this. I got a STEP solicitor. She came to the house for me. The £70K I am obsessed about in some peoples opinion is mine, she confirmed it. A joint account goes to the survivor ( which I know is what mum intended.). The house will be tenants in common. I can charge my brother rent ( although to be honest this would probably leave me paying more tax and so I would end up worse off). I could force my brother to sell but I dont really want to do that and I have to consider the cat who is 18 and really needs to be in mums home. The solicitor is clearing the rest of the estate for me.

I was told to write a will but that has become another nightmare as my husband has very different ideas about what should happen to our worldlies when he dies and what he wants me to do as well. I was just leaving everything to him . The wills have been drafted with my husbands wishes met but they now remain unsigned. But his ideas are another story. I guess thats why some people ( like my mom?) decide to go intestate. It saves arguments. Its never as simple as people think , when writing a will.

Granpep - my obsession with the £70K was not about doing my brother out of his inheritance but just getting what was mine. My brother has had differential treatment all his life. Looked after when he didnt work. Lived with my mum rent free. Didnt have to work ( well he refused point blank actually) in our family shop but got an "Allowance" anyway. I was never paid and I did much of the work for 10 years before mum and dad retired. So, there were many reasons that £70 came to me - a delayed payment for services rendered which is what my mum said when she put my name on that account. She gave me that money. I value it. It was mine, not doing my brother out of an inheritance.