"next of kin" definition

Lasting Power of Attorney can be applied for if someone loses mental capacity to make decisions for themselves.

There are two types of LPA:

A "Property and Financial Affairs" LPA allows your loved ones to deal with paying your bills, buying and selling your property and managing your bank accounts and investments.

A "Health and Welfare" LPA covers decisions about health and care and even deciding where you are to live. This can only be used if someone is incapable of dealing with such matters themselves.

Having P of A for my mother, after she lost capacity because of Alzheimer’s, we saw no earthly reason to involve social services. She was self-funded, so we didn’t need them to pay for anything, and we didn’t need anyone to assess her needs, when we could see so clearly for ourselves what her needs consisted of.

Ditto for my FiL.
There was a short tick-box visit by a SW, sent by the care home shortly before my DM moved, to ascertain that it was a necessary move, but by that stage TBH it would have been pretty obvious to anybody after twenty minutes.

My understanding though is that where the situation is related to a shared owned property, the person in care is required to release their part of the property to pay the fees if they don’t have other means of paying for their care, regardless of who administers it?

If your partner still lives there:
If your partner is still living in your jointly owned property, it will not be included in the means test.

Allira

If your partner still lives there:
If your partner is still living in your jointly owned property, it will not be included in the means test.

Does that apply after both spouses/partners are dead, do you know?

So suppose Mr Dog needs care - we would have to use joint savings to pay for it until they fell below the threshold, but not the house as I would be living there? After I die, would the LA come for the fees out of the estate (assuming that I didn't need care myself)?

I saw it on here

www.carehome.co.uk/advice/do-i-have-to-sell-a-jointly-owned-property-to-pay-for-care-home-fees

I understood that you cannot be forced to sell your jointly owned property to pay your spouse's fees, if you still live there.

I’ve known personally of a case where the fees were ‘rolled up’ and would only be claimed from the ultimate sale of the house, once the spouse (they had no children) had either died or himself had to move to a care home.

The chap in question (a daily visitor at my DM’s CH) told me this himself - he was quite happy with the arrangement.

I don't know if the costs can be reclaimed after the death of the spouse living in the home.
If that person died first, presumably the house would be left to the partner in care, so yes.

If tenants in common, I presume they could only claim on half of it.

It's complicated.

Yes, they are reclaimed when the spouse still living in the jointly owned house dies, even if it years later, they are a charge against the estate.

Casdon

Yes, they are reclaimed when the spouse still living in the jointly owned house dies, even if it years later, they are a charge against the estate.

But what if the heirs have spent their inheritance on buying a property /ies of their own? Emigrated?
Whst if the money has been left to a charity?

The estate will have been disposed of.

Allira

Lasting Power of Attorney can be applied for if someone loses mental capacity to make decisions for themselves.

There are two types of LPA:

A "Property and Financial Affairs" LPA allows your loved ones to deal with paying your bills, buying and selling your property and managing your bank accounts and investments.

^A "Health and Welfare" LPA covers decisions about health and care and even deciding where you are to live. This can only be used if someone is incapable of dealing with such matters themselves.^

As I understand it, Allira, you have to apply for Power of Attorney before you lose the capacity to understand what you are doing (which may be what you meant). It can then be invoked if you do lose capacity.

I have friends who had to go to court to allow them to become guardians for her mother because the mother had not set up a PoA and was no longer capable of doing so. It cost them a lot of time and money.

Allira, won’t there be a lien, i.e. a charge on the property, presumably noted on the Land Reg, to prevent anyone from selling it before the charge is paid?

I know of a lien on a neighbour’s house, registered after a property-related court case which he (rightly IMO) lost, so the charge (the other party’s expenses and damages) would have to be paid when he eventually sold the house.

So if the spouse still living in the house dies years later, they can still claim?

Presumably, but for all I know there may be an expiry date for liens.

genrally, yes, next of kin, is whoever the person naming them says, but where the person is mentally incapacitated, then 'next of kin' is the primary contact.

I looked after an uncle (by marriage) when he became mentally ill. But when the going got tough the psychiatrist just turned to me and said, you are not next of kin. Which was true, my uncle had a brother still living, however, he too as in a care home, but mentally lucid, so I got a signed letter from him saying he was not able to take on any next of kin responsibilities and he was handing them to me.

It meant I had to be informed of everything happening to my uncle and could query anything, even if I had no legal rights until we had sorted out the LPA.

Wheniwasyourage

Allira

Lasting Power of Attorney can be applied for if someone loses mental capacity to make decisions for themselves.

There are two types of LPA:

A "Property and Financial Affairs" LPA allows your loved ones to deal with paying your bills, buying and selling your property and managing your bank accounts and investments.

^A "Health and Welfare" LPA covers decisions about health and care and even deciding where you are to live. This can only be used if someone is incapable of dealing with such matters themselves.^

As I understand it, Allira, you have to apply for Power of Attorney before you lose the capacity to understand what you are doing (which may be what you meant). It can then be invoked if you do lose capacity.

I have friends who had to go to court to allow them to become guardians for her mother because the mother had not set up a PoA and was no longer capable of doing so. It cost them a lot of time and money.

Yes to this from Wheniwasyourage . Once they have lost the capacity to make their own decisions it is TOO LATE. They have to give their informed consent to the person who is getting the P of A making any decisions for them in the future, should decisions be necessary. THE CONSENT MUST BE GIVEN WHILE THEY ARE STILL CAPABLE OF GIVING IT.

That is quite difficult to get over to an older person who is still mentally alert and independent, and naturally wants to leave it until the last moment to (as they see it) hand over control of their lives to someone else. You have to emphasise to them that once signed the Power lies dormant in storage until they are definitely in need of it, and is only then officially activated.

Allira

Casdon

Yes, they are reclaimed when the spouse still living in the jointly owned house dies, even if it years later, they are a charge against the estate.

But what if the heirs have spent their inheritance on buying a property /ies of their own? Emigrated?
Whst if the money has been left to a charity?

The estate will have been disposed of.

My understanding is that a legal agreement has to be signed with the LA before they will pay for the care, as a loan against the persons estate. If it is a shared property, when the person still living there or their descendent sells it, the loan repayment is legally the first call against the estate, so you or your descendent will be pursued, ultimately through court processes to get the sum owed back. It also accrues interest until repaid.

Presumably anyone who is able to use Gransnet is still capable of understanding what setting up a PoA means (after all, aren't we all intellectually wonderful? ). Anyone who hasn't already done it should perhaps think about doing it while they can, if only because it makes it easier for the family (or whoever you have chosen to be your attorney) when decisions have to be made for you.

My parents set up PoAs in favour of my brother and me and while we never needed to use my father's one, my mother invoked the financial part when she no longer felt able to deal with her finances, and we invoked the welfare part when she needed care.

If you haven't done it, do think about it!

The difficulty Wheniwasyourage is that people are not always rational over decision about appointing POAs or making wills.

My parents set up POAs when they were in their 50s, I think we did ours when we were still in our 40s, but both DH and I were involved in the care of childless relatives and none of them had set up POAs and when approached refused to do so. I am not sure why, they just brushed the suggestion away.

In the end when the inevitable collapse of the households cncerned suddenly happened we managed to get the POAs through without recourse to the court of protection, but in one case, while done quite legally and with no one benefitting from the arrangement, the solicitor pushed it through saying that as far as she was concerned the couple involved were able to make informed decisions, which we all knew, but did not say, was not true.

Being next of kin confers no legal rights or obligations unless you hold POA.

My youngest daughter and myself have LPA for my dad for both Property/Financial and Health/Welfare. We had been chatting about the need as my dad had been struggling a little since my mum passed. My daughter talked to him and explained about it - he listens to her more than he does me. He wasn't sure at first but after a couple of days thinking about it he decided - yes. So glad we sorted it, it's a weight off our minds

In other words: make a will and a provisional power of attorney while you are legally capable of doinging so.

And write down what you want with regards to a funeral, or have a pre-paid funeral plan.

When they were admitted to hospital and we asked for next of kin , we used to suggest that it was the person who saw them the most or did the most for them . Eg the person who would be bringing their clean nighties in for them etc .
People used to think it had to be the oldest son , even if he lived in Australia and hadn’t spoke to them for ten years 😂

Power of attorney forms have to be completed before the person has lost capacity. After they lose capacity, it is an application to the court of protection for court deputyship that is required and that is a much more difficult process. It took 12 months for my son's deputy ship order to come through.
It is true that as next of kin you have no legal standing, so I would urge everyone to get powers of attorney put in place while you have capacity to do so. You can have more than one attorney acting jointly or severally, and at least you can choose who you want to act for you.