Wills and funeral when named executor is no longer alive.

Thank you for the links, M0nica.

Oldnproud. Phone your local Age UK and ask for advice, alternatively talk to a solicitor, any solicitor to ask for advice, althoygh this may cost you money.

Meanwhile Age UK have a number of very helpful factsheets.
Here are the links
1) When someone dies www.ageuk.org.uk/siteassets/documents/information-guides/ageukig03_when_someone_dies.inf.pdf
2) How to be an executor www.ageuk.org.uk/siteassets/documents/information-guides/ageukil8_how_to_be_an_executor_inf.pdf

FlitterMouse

*Cabbie*. Aunt herself has no PoA in place and now is very poorly such that it may not be possible for her to appoint a new executor for her Will.

OldnProud In practical terms, so long as you, your brother and cousins are in agreement, it would be easiest to apply for Letters of Administration with Will Annexed in your mother’s name as one of the two beneficiaries to Aunt’s Will, with you and your brother doing the practical work under the authority of your mother’s PoA. You will know whether you and he must act jointly or can act jointly and severally.

Depending on how much money is involved there could be inheritance implications as both your mother and her sister are going to receive a boost to the values of their own estates which (I am presuming) will eventually pass to you and your brother and your two cousins respectively.

Your cousins might need to think about how the inheritance from Aunt could affect how their mother's care is funded - if it is being covered by the local authority at present.

Lots to think about but one step at a time.

Ooh, that is useful advice regarding doing the practical work of administration under the authority of Mum's PoA. Thank you.

How much money might or might not be involved is a big unknown. There is a story behind that uncertainty which has kept the older family members guessing for many years 😂.
It's certainly not something that we have ever given much thought to in terms of what any of us might one day inherited though, because even huge sums can quickly get swallowed up when there are significant care needs.

It had occurred to me that any money left to my cousins' mum (assuming that she outlives Aunt) is likely to go towards her care costs, which I am presuming must be being covered by the local authorities given the length of time she has been in care, but unless Aunt were to actually write a new Will now in favour of the cousins rather than their mother, I guess that is almost inevitable.

Everything is very much up in the air at the moment anyway. Given the age and poor health of not only Aunt, but also her second cousins, things could still take an unexpected turn.

I really appreciate your input and will keep referring back to what you have written as and when the need arises.

Cabbie. Aunt herself has no PoA in place and now is very poorly such that it may not be possible for her to appoint a new executor for her Will.

OldnProud In practical terms, so long as you, your brother and cousins are in agreement, it would be easiest to apply for Letters of Administration with Will Annexed in your mother’s name as one of the two beneficiaries to Aunt’s Will, with you and your brother doing the practical work under the authority of your mother’s PoA. You will know whether you and he must act jointly or can act jointly and severally.

Depending on how much money is involved there could be inheritance implications as both your mother and her sister are going to receive a boost to the values of their own estates which (I am presuming) will eventually pass to you and your brother and your two cousins respectively.

Your cousins might need to think about how the inheritance from Aunt could affect how their mother's care is funded - if it is being covered by the local authority at present.

Lots to think about but one step at a time.

Just to add that PoA ceases at death of the donor, but it should mean you have a good knowledge of the finances of the Aunt.

Some banks and Building Societies will release funds on proof of eligibility. That may mean Probate, depending on the amount, and each banks sets its own limits, or simply a death certificate. They will certainly pay the funeral director’s fees direct. Ensure you ask to speak to someone in their Bereavement department. They are usually kinder, more knowledgable and more helpful than other employees.

Thanks again FlitterMouse.

Your understanding of all the relationships is correct, and your advice is very helpful and sensible.

We have financial POA in place for my mother - my dad saw to that before he died. Not sure about my cousins, but probably.

If only Aunt would (or could, as her mental capacity is not what it was) appoint a new executor, or executors, before it is too late, it would be helpful, but sadly I can't imagine her doing that now.

If I am understanding you correctly, the two beneficiaries of Aunt's Will be your Mum and your Mum's sister. Assuming Aunt dies before her two second cousins then the estate will be divided between them in accordance with Aunt's wishes. Let's hope someone can find the Will.

It sounds like time is of the essence here. If your Aunt is too poorly to formally appoint a new executor then, after her death, beneficiaries can apply for ‘Letters of Administration with Will Annexed’.

As neither beneficiary is well enough to take this on then the four of you (meaning you, your brother and two cousins) will need to agree among you who should do the admin on this.

I am assuming your two cousins are the children of your mum's sister who has dementia. It would seem sensible for one representative for each of the imminent beneficiaries to take control of this. Are there POAs in place for your mum and her sister? If so, it would make sense for those attorneys to act as in this matter. Does that make sense?

If you think that might be contentious in any way you may wish to speak to a solicitor. Other than that, it sounds like you and your mum have a decent grasp of what Aunt's estate will comprise so it shouldn't be too onerous.

This should help:

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and-wills/dealing-with-the-financial-affairs-of-someone-who-has-died/#:~:text=Applying%20for%20probate%20or%20letters,with%20filling%20out%20the%20form.

You could call CAB or HMCTS (Courts and Tribunal Service) at Harlow for some further advice.

As for the funeral, let the professionals, the funeral directors, church and or crematorium make as much of the arrangements as possible. Presumably the friend who has been helping your Aunt will have an idea of who, other than family members, would like to pay their respects and where might be a suitable venue for a funeral tea. There's a lot you can arrange at a distance.

Yes Lovemylife 🙂

Sorry Jaxjacky, posts crossed. I think we’re saying the same thing.

My uncle died last year and there were two named executors - my father (deceased) and his brother who’s in a care home. The brother renounced being an executor, and as a residual beneficiary I applied. It was all very straightforward and done through a solicitor. Once that had been done I passed on all the paperwork we could find and the solicitor could apply for probate. Now waiting ….

When my mother died one executor had died, the other, my Uncle, relinquished his role. In agreement with the other other beneficiaries my sister and I acted as administrators, we’d already engaged a solicitor as we knew we’d be out of our depth with the estate.

Thanks for those links, Elegran. They look useful. I will have to look at them properly later, as I need to break of here for a while.

FlitterMouse

As explained, Aunt would have to name them in a codicil to her current Will assuming she does not wish to make a new Will.

As soon as possible after her death, the executor should secure the deceased's property and control who is allowed entry. One of their duties will be to take an inventory of the deceased belongings as the value of her possessions will form part of her estate. There may be tangible items among her possessions that she has left to beneficiaries which need to be identified and secured.

In an ideal world, a testator would make a Will, let family members know where it is and who they have named as executor(s).

Can your Aunt's nearest relative at least ascertain who the existing Will was made with (assuming it was made by a solicitor) and talk to them about how to proceed now? Is her nearest relative her sister? Who was the named executor who died? A brother?

Banks and building societies are used to drawing down funds to pay funeral accounts. It's common practice.

Aunt is an only child.
Her nearest relative is my mum, who is her second cousin ). The executor who died was the second cousin's husband - my late dad. There is also another second cousin, my mum's sister, but in last stage dementia care so not in the equation re organising anything.

Under the terms of the old Will, these two second cousins were the ones who would have inherited. Unfortunately, I am told that Aunt simply never got around to making a new will, and it is highly unlikely to be done now.

I not sire of Mum knows the name of the solicitor - she might, on a good day. To be honest thoug h, Aunt does not have a cluttered house, so I imagine that official papers identifying the solicitor should be quite easy to locate.

The only family who could possibly act as executor are me, my brother or our two cousins.
If one of us agreed, would we have to formalise that in some way, such as with a solicitor, before doing anything else?

I have tried to find this "list of persons entitled to apply for probate" in the Rules, but failed to find it. Your relation needs professional advice for this.

The Non-Contentious Probate Rules 1987

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1987/2024/contents

The Co-op Legal services website says -

"If the executor dies before the deceased

If an executor named in the Will dies before the deceased and before the grant of probate has been issued by the Court, what happens next depends on what the Will says. If there are other named executors in the Will, it would be their responsibility to deal with the estate.

If all of the named executors have died before the deceased then it's likely the beneficiary or beneficiaries who are receiving the largest proportion of the estate would have the right to administer the estate. A maximum of four executors can act during probate and we would always recommend that 2 executors act to minimise the risk of this situation arising.

If there are more than four beneficiaries with equal shares of the estate, they are all equally entitled to act as executor, but only four can do so. So if the deceased left their estate equally between their six children, although they are equally entitled to act, only up to four could apply for Probate. It is up to the family to decide who should act and administer the estate.

With our Probate Complete Service we take full responsibility for getting Grant of Probate and dealing with the Legal, Tax (excl. VAT), Property & Estate Administration affairs."
www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/how-does-probate-work-if-the-executor-has-died/

Another Estate Planning law firm says something similar -
"The Non-Contentious Probate Rules 1987 set out in order who is entitled to apply for probate. After the executor themselves, anyone who has been appointed to hold assets in trust for a residuary beneficiary is next, followed by a residuary beneficiary. The list goes on beyond this, should this category of person not be available, but usually it is the case that the main beneficiary or beneficiaries of the estate will take on the role. A maximum of four people can act as beneficiaries".
www.cplaw.co.uk/insights/what-happens-in-estate-administration-if-an-executor-has-died/

As explained, Aunt would have to name them in a codicil to her current Will assuming she does not wish to make a new Will.

As soon as possible after her death, the executor should secure the deceased's property and control who is allowed entry. One of their duties will be to take an inventory of the deceased belongings as the value of her possessions will form part of her estate. There may be tangible items among her possessions that she has left to beneficiaries which need to be identified and secured.

In an ideal world, a testator would make a Will, let family members know where it is and who they have named as executor(s).

Can your Aunt's nearest relative at least ascertain who the existing Will was made with (assuming it was made by a solicitor) and talk to them about how to proceed now? Is her nearest relative her sister? Who was the named executor who died? A brother?

Banks and building societies are used to drawing down funds to pay funeral accounts. It's common practice.

I don't think for one minute that she will have pre-arranged / paid for her funeral though. But funds shouldn't be a problem as long as the fact that she only had a Building Society account, as opposed to a Bank one, doesn't complicate things.

I don't know if Aunt has stipulated the type of funeral she wants. I guess that info would rather be in the will, or alongside it.

Even the most basic things feel like a mystery at the moment - like who will be able to gain entry to her house (and how) to look for the will / the name of solicitor.

Thank you for replying.

If a family member does agree to act as executor, do they have to formalise that in some way before they can do anything else?

If the executor named in a Will has died during the lifetime of the testator and no other replacements are named in the Will, then the testator can either create a new Will (her wishes as regards who inherits what may have changed) or make a codicil to the original Will in order to name another executor.

If no family member wants the responsibility, the testator can appoint a professional executor e.g. her solicitor. It will be the executor's responsibility to organise the funeral even if not made specific in the Will.

Has Aunt stipulated what kind of funeral she wants? Funeral plans can be pre-arranged and pre-paid. If not pre-paid, when the time comes, the executor just sends the funeral director's bill to the deceased's bank to drawn down on any account that has sufficient funds. The cost of the funeral is a charge on the estate of the deceased. If there are no immediate liquid assets, the funeral directors will have to wait for their money until estate assets have been sold.