Is anyone else not on HRT?

Thank you everyone. I am so glad to know that I am not on my own. I think part of the current Menopause Hysteria is down to the trend these days is that " no one has ever suffered before like we do now" and that seems to be about every single aspect of life. The only difference between now and the past decades, centuries, millennia is the presence in our lives of social media.

Baggs

Good post, argymargy.

Thanks @Baggs - I appreciate that!

Esspee

I have never suggested it is for everyone DD. Nor that oestrogen will cure every medical condition.
I was trying to counterbalance the declarations from people who assume that they have sailed through the menopause when they don’t understand the long term issues. It is common on Gransnet to have older grans bemoaning their medical conditions which are related to low oestrogen levels but they are completely unaware of this.
My mother reached and passed the initial stages of menopause with no problems. Later she suffered hugely from completely preventable osteoporosis and later still the beginnings of dementia.

Like I said before...I don’t want to take HRT in case I get osteoporosis. I’ll take my chances. I take supplements, so no risk of side effects.

My friend had breast cancer, and developed osteoporosis, which is being treated very well. These options may not have been around for your mum. She also said she had no idea she had it, until scanned, as it’s painless. She does anything she wants exercise wise with no problem.

Prevention can be better than cure, but that’s usually because the curing part isn’t definite.

You also need to realise, if what you’re saying is true, it’s no good counterbalancing anything for those who think they’ve sailed through menopause. In your opinion, surely it’s too late?

It’s not by the way. Treat each symptom as it comes along. All is not lost.

Esspee...I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. Take care.

I have never suggested it is for everyone DD. Nor that oestrogen will cure every medical condition.
I was trying to counterbalance the declarations from people who assume that they have sailed through the menopause when they don’t understand the long term issues. It is common on Gransnet to have older grans bemoaning their medical conditions which are related to low oestrogen levels but they are completely unaware of this.
My mother reached and passed the initial stages of menopause with no problems. Later she suffered hugely from completely preventable osteoporosis and later still the beginnings of dementia.

Why is the media talking as though most women are too ashamed to talk about the menopause and HRT? Sophie Raworth this morning talking to Davina Mccall said that until DM's documentary she was ashamed to talk about it.

How is it that we all knew about HRT 30 years ago, maybe even longer. I remember in my 40s when my periods started to dry up, going to my GP and asking for HRT. I also remember discussing the menopause with all my friends. I was lucky - my symptoms just needed me to open or close a car window on a journey or put on or take off a cardigan, both at frequent intervals. My neighbour, poor lady, often had to change her sheets and nightdress during the night.

Considering the many, formerly verboten, topics that are discussed today, why so ashamed of the menopause?

Esspee

*DiscoDancer57*. Please don’t minimise the results of menopause.
You say you have never known anyone die from menopause.

Are you unaware that women have been sectioned, committed suicide, or had their careers wrecked. A shockingly high percentage of elderly women who fracture their hip die as a result. Osteoporosis is caused by lack of oestrogen.
Many who live with incontinence, osteoarthritis and prolapse will tell you that their quality of life is severely impacted. Vaginal atrophy and loss of libido cause the breakdown of marriages. Alzheimer’s is a living death.
I am sure others can provide more examples. You haven’t had problems so far, that’s great but don’t minimise the suffering other people experience.

Yes...I am aware, having worked as a nurse in Psychiatric wards. These are separate conditions which may or may not be related to menopause. I agree...they are debilitating, but to hear you talk, it sounds like one wave of the HRT wand will cure everything!

It might...but it might not

This link to the NHS explains women/men and osteoporosis

www.nhs.uk/conditions/osteoporosis/causes/

Women
Women are more at risk of developing osteoporosis than men because the hormone changes that happen at the menopause directly affect bone density.

The female hormone oestrogen is essential for healthy bones. After the menopause, oestrogen levels fall. This can lead to a rapid decrease in bone density.

Men
In most cases, the cause of osteoporosis in men is unknown. However, there's a link to the male hormone testosterone, which helps keep the bones healthy.

Men continue producing testosterone into old age, but the risk of osteoporosis is increased in men with low levels of testosterone.

Esspee

*GagaJo*. I was referring to the long term effects of the menopause on this thread.
From discussions with my peers my experience is that many of them admit to stress incontinence, one has severe incontinence and does not leave the house any more, a few are on treatment for vaginal atrophy, some have given up on a sex life, one is awaiting an operation for prolapse and several have osteoporosis. I fear that at least two are showing Alzheimer symptoms., oh yes and one has osteoarthritis and can’t drive.

Mostly when people say they “sailed through the menopause” they are referring to hot flushes and the like. Very few women seem aware that it is the long term effects which will impact on their quality of life in older age.

I understand that, Esspee.

But as I said, by the nature of the age of Gransnet members, this site should have a predominance of women showing those symptoms. We are that age range.

If we were suffering vaginal atrophy, incontinence, prolapse etc, as result of menopause, it would be forming part of the conversation on this thread. And it largely isn't.

We are older age. And most of us are fine.

And the idea that it is mostly women who die after hip fractures is also wrong. Men are much more likely to die.
Gender

The literature regarding the ratios of female to male patients which suffer a fragility hip fracture is consistent at approximately 70:30.14 15 Whilst it is well documented that both sexes have excess mortality post hip fracture, male gender has repeatedly been shown to have a greater mortality excess than females.15 A large Norwegian study16 involving 81,867 patients with fragility hip fracture concluded a 4.6 fold higher excess one-year mortality in males and 2.8-fold excess in females versus age-matched non-hip fracture controls whilst Kristensen et al17 reported mortality in males as high as 2-fold higher compared to females. Similarly, Liu et al18 reported an almost twofold increase (HR 1.91). A multitude of separate studies consistently describe the male gender as a risk factor for excess mortality following hip fracture.19-25

One of the other factors is the length of time it takes to have surgery. Earlier is better,

Not on HTT suffering a few menopause symptoms but happy to go au natural

Glorianny. A doctor told me men with osteoporosis have low testosterone levels. I’ve never researched this.

Esspee

*DiscoDancer57*. Please don’t minimise the results of menopause.
You say you have never known anyone die from menopause.

Are you unaware that women have been sectioned, committed suicide, or had their careers wrecked. A shockingly high percentage of elderly women who fracture their hip die as a result. Osteoporosis is caused by lack of oestrogen.
Many who live with incontinence, osteoarthritis and prolapse will tell you that their quality of life is severely impacted. Vaginal atrophy and loss of libido cause the breakdown of marriages. Alzheimer’s is a living death.
I am sure others can provide more examples. You haven’t had problems so far, that’s great but don’t minimise the suffering other people experience.

How come men get osteoporosis if it's lack of oestrogen?

I had oestrogen fed breast cancer so take tablets to eliminate oestrogen from my body. I do not have a prolapse, osteoporosis, stress incontinence or any of the other horrors mentioned.
I probably am stiffer than I used to be but I am 75 and told I look young for my age so there is hope for us without HRT.

Premarin is still available in many forms - spray, patches, gels. The cruelty is the same. The only answer is to ask the prescribing doctor the exact source of your medication.

Not on HRT, not something I’m interested in tbh. Almost 5 years into menopause now & haven’t really noticed any major symptoms, apart from the obvious lack of periods. But then I’ve always been a bit overweight & moody so no change there.

OakDryad
argymargy I agree and would like to see some longitudinal lifestyle studies which try to discover why some women suffer debilitating menopausal symptoms and some don't; why some women develop the age-related conditions that HRT is said to prevent and some don't develop those conditions even though they never take HRT
That would make sense. One sister who has osteoporosis in her spine, took HRT until she got cancer. Another sister is fit and healthy with no problems so far. All of us sailed through the menopause. It doesn’t make sense.

Yoginimeisje

Haven't read the last 2 pages, but Esspee pm'd me and informed me that horse urine isn't used anymore, but yams are. I am really pleased to hear that and hope Esspee puts her message to me on here for all to read.

Esspee Thank you for clarifying the alternatives to Premarin. Pfizer still make the drug from pregnant mare's urine and still sell it in the UK so there must be a market somewhere. My concern would be the current rush to get hold of HRT and the consequential shortages could lead to a rise in uptake of equine-derived estrogen.

argymargy I agree and would like to see some longitudinal lifestyle studies which try to discover why some women suffer debilitating menopausal symptoms and some don't; why some women develop the age-related conditions that HRT is said to prevent and some don't develop those conditions even though they never take HRT.

argymargy. I agree with your last paragraph 100%

There is however a complete unawareness amongst women about the long term effects of low oestrogen. Women say they sailed through menopause without realising that their stress incontinence, osteoarthritis etc. might have been prevented.

Education is key.

Yoginimeisje

Haven't read the last 2 pages, but Esspee pm'd me and informed me that horse urine isn't used anymore, but yams are. I am really pleased to hear that and hope Esspee puts her message to me on here for all to read.

Happy to do so. Way back in the past Premarin was used widely. Once the method of production was publicised many women switched to plant based HRT for ethical reasons. I believe Premarin is still produced but oestrogen is prescribed as transdermal preparations or implants, so patches, gel, sprays and implants these days though there may be some dinosaur doctors prescribing it. It is up to women to refuse it if offered.
Personally I advise women not to accept oestrogen in pill form as the dosage is much higher than transdermal preparations to counter the first pass through the liver.
I have no idea how long plant based oestrogen has been available but certainly for more than the 33 years that I have been taking it.

Good post, argymargy.

GagaJo. I was referring to the long term effects of the menopause on this thread.
From discussions with my peers my experience is that many of them admit to stress incontinence, one has severe incontinence and does not leave the house any more, a few are on treatment for vaginal atrophy, some have given up on a sex life, one is awaiting an operation for prolapse and several have osteoporosis. I fear that at least two are showing Alzheimer symptoms., oh yes and one has osteoarthritis and can’t drive.

Mostly when people say they “sailed through the menopause” they are referring to hot flushes and the like. Very few women seem aware that it is the long term effects which will impact on their quality of life in older age.

Esspee your proselytising is admirable but many women on this thread have explained how they are just fine without HRT. I too have had a bone scan showing healthy/youthful density but have never taken HRT because I’ve had breast cancer. Most of the conditions you talk about are associated with the march of time and you’re right that HRT can delay some or many of them. Just like maintaining a healthy weight can help you avoid osteoarthritis. Much incontinence can be avoided by exercise. Hip fractures in elderly women often precede death because they lead to hospitalisation, which inevitably (perhaps paradoxically) leads to deterioration.

One of the irritating aspects of the current wave of publicity around menopause is the shouty absolutism so prevalent in modern life. Why so fervent that not taking HRT will be catastrophic? Can we not agree that HRT is beneficial to many and should be available to those who need it, along with clear information about benefits, risks and alternatives?

Haven't read the last 2 pages, but Esspee pm'd me and informed me that horse urine isn't used anymore, but yams are. I am really pleased to hear that and hope Esspee puts her message to me on here for all to read.

Of course those are all possibilities Esspee. But Gransnet, but the very nature of this site means it has a massive predominance of post menopausal female members with a huge range of ages. The vast majority of whom are saying they have had no major problems from menopause.

Fair enough, you have a totally different point of view and that there are women who suffer horrible effects from menopause. But you can't refute the lived experiences of women on here saying 'no menopause problems'.

I had an early menopause at 39 when my periods stopped. I had some hot flushes but not very bad. I thought at first I was pregnant but not that. I was put on HRT for 10 years to protect against cancer and heart problems then it was discounted and stopped. Never noticed any difference. I felt lucky really as many friends had terrible flooding, hot flushes where they had to change the bed in the middle of the night and depression. Now DD1 is concerned as she has had immense problems period wise and a few flushes - she is 36 - blood tests are normal so I am feeling guilty that I might have passed it on to her.