Truancy penalties - should they be tougher?

Teachers don't exactly set a good example when they go on strike in term time! And they have more holidays than most businesses - certainly small businesses.

I agree goldengirl, and pensions in large parts of the private sector are lagging behind those in the public sector.

Regarding reading standards these days, I have a set of books that were presented to my grandmother nearly 100 years ago, for each of the 8 years that she achieved 100% attendance. She got a medal each year, too. I have read all these books, and looked at them again a few days ago. They are quite complex novels with sophisticated language that children of 6 to 11 years would struggle with nowadays. All seem to be aimed at 12 years and above - she left school at 13 - yet each book was presented to her from the age of 6. Perhaps they were given to her to build up a collection for when she was older - I never asked her.

I know this will raise some hackles, but I can't help thinking that the standard of education among teachers has declined, certainly in literacy. The spelling of some of my daughter's teachers, and now my granddaughters', leaves a lot to be desired. No one in education seems to think that spelling and grammar are important any more.

No hackles raised Anagram, but I can assure you that your are wrong about teachers not caring. Kids just do not read anymore, and spend much time on computers and phones, texting in a phonetic way- and it is a very hard battle to win. The same is happening all over the world, and not just in the UK.

nelliedeane, love and hugs from a stranger.

in 1993, when i started teaching, my head of department said 'they won't stop truancy until they stop the child benefit! pay child benefit if they come to school, and they'll all be in every day!'

its taken the government a while to catch up.

Carol, I agree in researching various branches of my family tree, I was lucky enough to obtain copies of letters written by various ancestors in the 19th century. The grammar and the cursive writing certainly impressed me, given that these people would have been in classes with 50 or more children, and would have left full time education well before 16. Often when you see the written outpourings of today's teenagers, sadly attached to flowers when there has been something like a fatal accident, they write like little children with big round baby writing, incorrect spelling, slang and text talk.

anagram - I know this will raise some hackles, but I can't help thinking that the standard of education among teachers has declined, certainly in literacy. The spelling of some of my daughter's teachers, and now my granddaughters', leaves a lot to be desired. No one in education seems to think that spelling and grammar are important any more.

anagram, i teach. and i'm grateful for any help with spelling, punctuation and grammar. that's one of the reasons i'm sticking with gransnet

oh, but not upper case. i know when to use it, i just don't like the way it looks

granjura - thank you for being so diplomatic, but I was referring to the lack of literacy among teachers, not the influence of modern technology upon today's children.

granbunny - I just can't help wondering why you would need any help with spelling, punctuation and grammar if you are a qualified teacher. Surely teachers should be competent in the basic skills they're employed to impart to our children?

Ooops apologies Anagram- and on this I totally agree. Getting teacher's reports full of spelling mistakes used to really annoy me too. My first Head Teacher agreed to check all my reports to parents for the first couple of years, as English is not my mother-tongue and I taught French and German.
At least I had a minor excuse, lol.

that's the sad part, anagram. decades of reading the pupils' slang has left me uncertain of things i once knew perfectly well!

OK ...I'm sticking my head on the block again ...

There is a cohort of teachers ...and others of a similar age, in all walks of life...who were taught when it was deemed creativity was all that mattered and correcting spelling, teaching grammar and punctuation was inhibiting creativity ...well meaning liberals ...don't you just love 'em Everything was taught through topics, not subjects.

And yes, historically, children were taught in classes of 50 ...by rote ...never leaving their seats ...beautiful copperplate handwriting (children being beaten for blots or trying to write with their left hand) ...everyone's handwriting was the same ...then came 'creativity' ...free spirit ...being an individual ...and therefore creating one's own handwriting style.

These children who were taught by rote ...had a basic education of the 3 Rs ... no science, or technology, or drama, or art, or ...you get the picture.

Today's primary children are also being taught P.S.H.E, computer time and a second language ...you can only get so much in a 'pint pot'.

Of course no one would advocate going back to teaching by rote, Jacey, and I know a lot more subjects have to be taught now, but I still maintain that teachers should be competent in the basics before they're granted a licence to teach.

Jacey take your point about children being beaten and intimidated in days gone by and my late father in law was one of those who was forced to write with his right hand, I gather left handed people were considered to be deviants, and I thank God my left handed son didn't live then.

However, I don't see any point in learning a second language if you can't read and write your mother tongue, if a child leaves primary aged 11 unable to read and write I'd say that school had failed them and no amount of computer time, second language or PSHE will make up for that.

Perhaps we are digressing here, and this discussion belongs to a new thread, please. Merci

granjura most of the threads on Gransnet end up digressing

I agree re second languages baNANA. Gove would like to reverse the trend but many schools have reduced the numbers of language teachers over last 5 years or so.
There used to be lots of adult illiteracy in the past. No question. Things were not all rosy.
The OP reflects a trend in recent politics (Blair did it too) of coming up with headline grabbing but totally impractical ideas which are then allowed to quietly die. (Yes Minister...) The mechanism for penalising parents via child benefit system does not exist. Would cost a fortune to set up. Tax system, child benefit admin, justice and education all separate processes Flat rate benefits never seem "fair" but they are cheap and easy to deliver.
Never been in favour of fining parents. I remember the day when I struggled to get my truanting 15 year old to school to sit is mock English. A teacher then sent him home because he had white socks on which were not acceptable uniform!!!!!!! Schools can often be part of the problem. Imagine being forced to wear clothes dictated by someone else, spend a whole day with about 28 14 year olds, having to sit on hard chairs, speak only when spoken to, put up with the other 14 years olds and do what you are told, when you are told to do it... Just one day would tax most adults I suggest. That's before you start on other aspects of school life.
I suspect the parents who get fined are NOT the ones who take kids out for trivial reasons, but the ones with more complex problems.

Yes, I was responding to a post about teaching standards - I agree we've digressed from the truancy issue, but perhaps it's all relevant?

JessM your comment regarding your 15 year old's wrong socks and his exclusion from mock GCSE resonated with me, my son was almost excluded from an actual GCSE, wrong shoes! Sorry to digress again, but I'm sitting here typing this whilst watching Newsnight and Tony Blair is on talking about tax evasion so I'm just off to the to the bathroom to throw up! Might be a while.

JessM 'Imagine being forced to wear clothes dictated by someone else etc...' ! I think we all went through that at school - that's the system. We might find it hard to do now, but that's because we're adults. We accepted the regime when we were at school - why should today's children be treated any differently? What has changed?

Yes Anagram it is all relevant.

We need to take some of the subjects out of the mix at primary school ...so that more time can be given to the basic skills ...then perhaps the expectations at secondary can be met so that fewer children become disenfranchised with the process.

Also ...perhaps the truancy at primary is more parent lead ...while at secondary it is more individual pupil lead??

However ...I refer back to my original post on this thread ...

"Personally ...I would prefer all children to leave school with a love of life, an understanding of emotional health and well-being and a sense of citizenship...academic achievements should be the icing on the cake not the whole cake!! "

My own belief is that it should be the other way round. Academic achievements should surely be the main aim of education - the rest should be the icing on the cake!

baNANA said:
However, I don't see any point in learning a second language if you can't read and write your mother tongue, if a child leaves primary aged 11 unable to read and write I'd say that school had failed them and no amount of computer time, second language or PSHE will make up for that.

I have to disagree a little here. Learning a second language helps a child understand how their own language works. It helps them understand grammar far better than just teaching English grammar does. Still, I have to agree that learning to read and write English is of the utmost importance.

As for nobbling the parents' benefit as a punishment for a child's truancy - this is ridiculous. You cannot legislate or punish to make a bad parent good. Other strategies are needed.