Truancy penalties - should they be tougher?

Blimey, FlicketyB, you make some sweeping deductions, don't you? I was merely quoting from the article. Talk about walking on eggshells!
I am sure nothing I have ever posted could possibly lead anyone to believe that I had any kind of agenda against the less privileged members of society. The term of abuse usually used against me is that I am a leftie - which I am proud to admit.

nelliedeane just read your first post, I am so sorry and wish you and your family well. As far as teens are concerned, I imagine it would be pretty difficult for most parents to manhandle them into school, so I don't know what the solution to that would be. I think it has to be said that some schools provide a very toxic environment, a friend of mine couldn't get her 13 year old to go to school for a whole year as he was having a hard time not fitting in with what his classmates considered "the norm", in addition he hated the way a large portion of the lesson was lost to the teacher/s maintaining some semblance of order. She finally got her ex partner, after many months of their son being absent from school, to agree, most reluctantly to stump up the fees for a small quirky private school where there is an emphasis on treating the pupil as an individual and he seems to have settled there happily. As far as taking children out of school for holidays, when ours were in primary, we did it all the time, particularly towards the end of term when they rarely did anything significant. Now both in their twenties, the youngest one in his final year at university,they have both mentioned, without me prompting them, that they considered our family holidays to be far more educational than anything they did at school and I have absolutely no regrets in taking them out of school on these occasions.

That is a difficult issue. As a teacher, I was flabbergasted when kids where taken away from school for several weeks at a time, just before GCSE's or other major exams- because it was cheaper. Or to go to the hairdresser, shopping, whatever. Often parents asked me to spend several hours preparing work for the child to take away to do during the hols, so they wouldn't fall behind (only to find that they didn't do the work anyway). There are some very irresponsible parents out there, sadly. And I suppose fining them won't really help. Often the children had special needs, and huge efforts were made by staff to keep them on track, only to find their efforts wasted due to time taken off. FlicketyB there are of course special cases as you describe - but in most cases I've come across, it was just to find a cheaper deal to Disneyland or Benidorm - and the children paid a high price in their education on their return. Can you imagine taking kids away from school for 2 weeks just before GCSEs?

Where I live now, parents are definitely given steep fines for taking kids away from school, and even prison in some cases. Tough I agree, but parents do seem to respect the education of their children more here.

P.S. When we first discussed this, I made it clear that I thought parents should be able to take their children out of school for holidays.
I really don't mind taking flak when it is justified, but I would be glad if people made sure of their facts before castigating me.

Local authorities already have the power to prosecute if they wish. To take money from child benefit automatically would be unjust. There are so many reasons why children won't (or can't) go to school. My son stopped attending school when he was 14, he had been threatened and bullied. I would have loved the school to take me to court so that I could publicize the problem. They didn't of course. And not attending school does not mean that a child can't achieve. My son is now at uni doing an MA.

I had a couple of occasions to take my children out of school for holidays and had no qualms about it. I needed a holiday and they were too young to leave at home, it was September, beginning of a new term, and I was last on the list for holidays because my colleagues had taken priority when they had children doing GCSEs and A levels earlier, and parents with younger children were juggling school holidays, too. If I hadn't taken the leave that had been carried over for a month after my leave year ended, I would have lost the leave and holidays too. Children and school should be accommodated where possible, but sometimes, all the variables just don't work out.

what a difficult subject. There are lots of childen who are absent from school for a variety of reasons, some because of laziness on both parts and some for personal and family difficulties. I have seen children, with parents, who should be in school. At a checkout the cashier asked in a friendly 'what no school today?' Mother's reply that the child wasn't well that day, but well enough to go on a large shopping trip apparently. I've seen that plenty of times. A teacher friend said that some children are always very late into school as both child and parent has watched TV to all hours and couldn't get up in time. Attending at 2.pm marks you as present that day. When my children were in primary school, there was then in my area a lot of guest houses - we just seem to have hotels now very few guest houses like there used to be. The children always took their holidays during term time as their parents couldn't during the peak season. So holidays were taken after the winter half term. The girls who worried about their mother being taken ill with her MS is so sad - that is when they should be able to ask Social Services for help or at least some home schooling.

I wouldn't expect any sensible parent to take a child out of school in the year they were taking GCSE's or A-levels - and children of that age might be responsible enough to be left at home anyway.
Few people take holidays that are longer than one or two weeks, and I don't believe those last few weeks before the summer holiday are that essential for younger children that it is going to affect their entire lives. They seem to be mainly taken up with sports days!

The term 'middle class' particularly where parents are involved is becoming a pejorative word suggesting a special interest group demanding special privileges. Why cannot we just say that following pressure or representations from parents and leave out the adjectives? Many of the changes made to government policies by parent demand benefit children from all backgrounds.

Iresponsible and responsible parents exist in every strata of society and I cannot see how stopping child benefit will have any effect on truancy. Irresponsible parents will just muddle through and those whose children are missing school because of family trauma will have just another burden piled upon them. The problem should be picked up and dealt with by family interventions as soon as a child begins to have unexplained absences, usually in primary school. Parents who still persistently do not get children to school may need more exacting interventions but I cannot see that stopping child beneft will solve anything.

I repeat, Flickety - I was just quoting. I don't use class labels.

Nellie I am so sorry you lost your daughter You are obviously doing a terrific job bringing up your gd, good for you

Nellie xxxxxx

Well done nelliedeane ...such a traumatic time for you and your gd

Unfortunately 'a one size fits all' attitude to truancy is not feasible...different ages of children ...different family circumstances. BUT ...yes taking children out of school for a fortnights holiday can and does disrupt learning. HOWEVER ...finances, parental work commitments ...means it does have to happen if the family are to get any quality time together. And NO ...I'm not an advocate of setting children work to take away so they can keep up ...what is lost is lost...what they gain from the holiday remained with them.

Actually ...I don't think all the education changes made since we or our children were at school have made any difference to the number of children leaving school either literate or numerate... our grandchildren.

Those of us with families in rural areas ...were always out of school during harvest time ...and yes this did go on up until the early 1950s. There has always been truancy ...for whatever reason ...I actually do wonder if (based on percentage) it is now worse or better??

The only truancy I think we should currently be focussing on ...is that which parents are unaware. [stick neck out] emocion . Instead of punative measures ...ways to support children and/or children should be sought.

Think much of this misconception has to do with the government still not grasping the concept of average ...as in average ability ...the middle!! The number of higher achievers being the same as the number of lower achievers! [teaching granny to suck eggs] emocion

Personally ...I would prefer all children to leave school with a love of life, an understanding of emotional health and well-being and a sense of citizenship...academic achievements should be the icing on the cake not the whole cake!!

That should have been ...ways to support parents and/or children

Sorry it was such a long post

The thing is that there is lots of evidence that tells us that persistent truants and pupils with poor attendance for other reasons do less well at school. Many of the schools I worked with had put huge efforts into keeping the children in school and it did make a difference. I am not talking about individual cases of people taking the children off on one holiday (educational or not) but the evidence from large numbers of pupils. I think most schools work very hard to keep the pupils there (remember Educating Essex?) and they deserve a bit more support and a bit less criticism.
Clearly I am not talking about what happened to you Nellie - I am so sorry you had a bad experience at such a difficult time.

Jacey very sensible

Why is it that the only solution to any social ill that this Government seems to come up with is to cut benefits? Children stay away from school for any number of reasons ranging from bullying to boring lessons. Sadly it's a fact that some people in society can cope with virtually anything thrown at them while others needs help. And that's not a class or income issue.
Truancy needs a lot more carrot than stick. Smaller classes, specialised teaching, how to be a plumber rather than how to pass exams that will get a school to the top of a league table etc.
Yet what has this Government done? Slashed EMA for teenagers, cut Sure Start centres for young children and slagged off teachers while coming up with another set of guidelines for schools to follow.
Personally I would not let Michael Gove run a school crossing patrol never mind a country's education system.
Education is a country's future whether it's teaching children to be nuclear scientists or electricans. When did the internet last fix a leaking tap?
And Nellie you are doing a great job. Hang in there.

One could say that allowing kids too much time off school is discriminatory, as it can allow them to fall behind, and through the net, especially kids with learning difficulties, and especially at crucial times. Sadly, not all parents are sensible (: - irrespective of social class. We had kids at my school regularly missing school for hairdressers appointments, shopping trips, and also to look after younger sibblings on a regular basis, etc. It can be heart breaking for staff who spend a lot of time outside school hours often to help kids catch up and keep afloat, and then see them fail due to time off school at crucial times.
Agree though that support is better than fines, in most cases- but some families can be very hard to support, and the kids pay the price.

Instead of slapping a punitive tax on the parents of truanting children, I would like to see some concerted effort by the government to look at, and behind, the ' why ' of truanting children, whatever social strata they are seen to belong to.

Strewth, it's not rocket science!

No it isn't rocket science, but it is complicated. I actually think one very major factor is the fact that the government and the press are always blaming schools rather than supporting them. Despite what people say there have been huge improvements in the last twenty years and standards have risen, especially in primary. There are vocational courses and modern apprenticeships, but we never hear about them and the current government clearly doesn't value technical and vocational education. It is easy for pupils to think that schools is not important and I think this attitude is shared by some parents. Of course there are some problems with "bullying and boring lessons", but it not the whole story by any means. Here in France the press actually celebrates schools, teachers and pupils even though there are plenty of things wrong with French schools (and the teachers really do go on strike).

Yep, it is complicated, Mamie, and I agree with your comments, particularly with the concept of celebrating education. I sometimes wonder if that's a lack of 'top down' thinking.

Teachers go on strike here too, don't they?

Not very often. I feel enormous sympathy for today's teachers - so much is expected of them and they get blamed for all of society's ills in some quarters.
I think there is a big difference in the odd week off for a family holiday, which may be the only time available because of work commitments, etc. and persistent truanting, either with or without the parents' knowledge. The latter needs some investigating to see why the pupil is so disaffected.

Hello Mamie in what respect do you think there have been huge improvements in education in the last 20 years? I have read numerous articles that suggest that there are thousands of children leaving primary school virtually illiterate and the UK has slipped down the world league tables in reading, maths and science. Many employers are expressing the view that many of our young are virtually un-employable, including graduates. I suspect teachers and schools are celebrated in France because they are much better than here. Sorry I don't mean to be contentious but that's my opinion.

Middle class parents are taken to court. Absentdaughter underwent an appalling (for her and for me) adolescence which first manifested itself by her running away at the age of twelve and refusing to go to school. She had been thrilled to gain a place at one of London's best girls' schools where she had been doing very well. I got in touch with Social Services when I couldn't persuade her to go back to school. The mad woman (Educational Social Worker) assigned to the case seemed to think everything was my fault. Whenever anything happened, say the house being wrecked, she would ask me "What did you do?" She also suggested that I should ask a friend with a car - I don't drive - to come round in the morning and manhandle absentdaughter into his car with my help. I refused. Eventually, I was taken to court. This mad woman's final comment there was "Miss absent spoke so quickly that I couldn't understand what she was saying." I asked for a new Educational Social Worker to be assigned who proved to be a more sympathetic and more intelligent (not difficult) person.