For Newsnight: should we end universal benefits for better off pensioners?

If you have a UK old age pension you get an S1 form which transfers a sum of about 3000€ per annum from the UK to France. A similar sum is transferred for French pensioners in the UK. It is an EEC wide arrangement so would apply in Germany if you have a UK state pension based on your contributions. We don't have a UK address.
We also get no reductions for bus fares, museums etc. We get 70% of our medical costs paid and have to have a top-up insurance for the other 30%, approximately 140€ a month for us.

Yes, we have paid NI all our working lives but ever since it was introduced, governments have treated it like all other taxes and have gambled on being able to pay pensions, health care and all other benefits out of tax income. Now they can't. The same applies to some public sector pensions as well; instead of setting up invested funds to pay occupational pensions, the income was used for any and all government expenditure. They didn't even consider whether income from working people's NI matched expenditure on non-working people's pensions and benefits until they realised it wouldn't! When Robert Maxwell used the Daily Mirror pension fund for other purposes, it was called fraud. When Charles 1 used ship-money for other purposes, it led to the Civil War and to his execution. Surely, there is a lesson there?

Are suggesting we behead our politicians? A little extreme surely!

I also get 70% of my medical costs in France, but I don't bother with a top up as I have very little need of any medication. I do pay about €33 a month in case I need to go into hospital as an in-patient.
I don't really understand the bitterness some people seem to feel towards those of us who enjoy living in a different country - could there be a hint of envy.
Deserving - I feel your reply to Mamie falls somewhat short of the standard of courtesy that we normally expect from members.

Thanks for the info.Mamie and Greatnan. This could be more important for me should I be widowed. At present I am insured health-wise as a family member on my husband's insurance and am only in receipt of a percentage of the old age pension, having left the UK at such an early stage in my life.

If any on GN feel envious of us living abroad then they should know that nothing comes without a cost. I have paid for that with many hours of homesickness in the first years and although I love it here now I have not forgotten those days.

jeni
In answer to your tax question, no , gift aid is not possible on tax free monies.

I think MargaretX, on reflection, that it is also about how long you have paid in to each country's national insurance system. If I remember correctly, it depends on which country is defined as your "competent state". So if you paid in, say, for 15 years in the UK and 25 in Germany, I think it would be Germany. I am not an expert, but I have found the people at the International Pensions' Centre in Newcastle to be very helpful. I would give them a ring.

Husband and I had a huge argument discussion about this subject .
We belong in the "better off", and he feels we should give up those benefits, for the less well off.
Could not hear the end of his soliloquy because I had to switch on the cooker
hood, which drowned him out.

Anagram I wonder how detailed your knowledge of the benefits system is?

johanna I admire your husband.

The thing is, johanna, if you just declined the benefits they'd be a drop in the ocean of a huge coalition debt-bucket. Take them and donate them to a charity of your choice, or keep them and use them to supplement your income - however well-off you are! At the moment, at least, you are entitled to them.

petallus - please enlighten me, as you are obviously very knowledgeable. Tell me how a couple with two or three children can starve or freeze if they're in receipt of all the benefits on offer.

I think we deserve our benefits

Okay Anagram I have close family members in this situation and often have to help them out with food and heat in the winter. I do get to hear in great detail about their frustrations with the benefits system.

Until quite recently some people were paid by a cheque/voucher which arrived in the post, since they were not in a position to have a bank account. Mistakes in the benefits office or delays in the post often meant days without money. There is a lot of form filling to be done before missing money can be repaid.

Even if there is just about enough money to cover food and heating there is nothing for clothes and the repair of essential household goods like ovens/refrigerators. A crisis loan will usually be taken to pay for these necessary items and repayment of the loan is through deduction of benefits.

A really bad situation is if someone manages to get a few hours work and declares it. All benefits are immediately stopped because of the change in circumstances and it can easily take six weeks to get new payments re-established, by which time the temporary work is about to end and the whole process of stopped benefits begins again with no income at all for the family for weeks.

Incidentally, the benefits office send out claim forms in the post and if they do not arrive insist on the family waiting for two weeks before they will send out more forms (don't ask me why).

Forms get lost by the benefits office. Claimants get different information each time they phone. Sometimes they can't afford the phone calls because they don't have a house phone or a mobile phone and have to use a call-box.

That's all I can think of now really. Except for what happens when someone who is unemployed long term finally manages to find work. My relative was thrilled to get part-time job in a well known store. However, it was only for 20 hours a week. He declared this to the benefits office, housing benefit etc. who of course decreased his benefits so that he was just a little bit better off than when he was on benefits. However, when doing this they did not take into account his travelling expenses which were significant as the 20 hours a week was split over five days and the train fare (he doesn't have a care) was expensive. Hence he had to chose between getting to work and eating towards the end of each month.

There!

I meant 'car'. Actually he is full of 'care'.

Sounds very familiar! Like now -
My daughter is in the throes of trying to sort out her money as because she has hurt her back she can't be on Jobseekers benefit........she can't even sit on a bus although she is a little better..

So far:
Different info every time...YES
Not knowing when she will next get money...
Knowing that a form and letter was posted Friday but 'apparently' hasn't arrived...will she have to trek to the doctor (with my help - again) for a new letter?
Thinking I will have to bail her out again, for the sake of my grandson!

johana Surely if she keeps the £300 and donates to charity out of income that covers it? Quite simple!

Mamie as you can imagine I have been on line and even read all the blurb which sits with my pension forecast in an large brown envelope.

The difference in our situations is that I have dual nationality and am in Germany, by law a German citizen. I have a British passport and when in the UK am British. I am considered 'accounted for' and adequately cared for regarding health and illness and other benefits payable to German citizens.

Thanks for the exchange of facts. it was very helpful as I don't usually go onto expat forums.

Thanks petallus.
It does seem, however, that you are saying the system doesn't work as it should, not that the family is not receiving enough benefits to live on. I know from my own daughter's experience that the Tax Credits system is a shambles!

You are welcome, MargaretX. I had a feeling that would be the case.

I think many people assume that the benefit system looks after those who need it especially when children are involved but there are so many things that can go wrong and leave a family on the breadline for example:

1) price of gas and electricity constantly rising (especially for those who are unfortunate enough to have one of those god damned prepayment meters).
2) Essential item breaks down (fridge, cooker etc) no money to replace.
3) Child ill and unable to go to nursery. Mother or father has to take unpaid leave from work. Nursery still have to be paid in full.

I could go on and on with examples such as these and yet some people just don't get it that there are children living in poverty.

We're back to the question of how one defines poverty.

Sorry Anagram didn't mean for it to go that way just trying to make the point that while well off pensioners enjoy winter fuel allowance and other things, there are genuine cases where young children/families are suffering.

No need to apologise, gillybob - I wasn't implying that you had brought the subject back to that, I am genuinely interested in what constitutes 'poverty' in a) the government's opinion and b) the public's opinion. It's an emotive word, but what does it actually mean in terms of deprivation?

Hi anagram I think the meaning of poverty is different depending on who you are and what standard of living you have/expect.

For me the meaning of poverty(in this country) is :-

Unable to afford to keep warm.
Unable to afford good nutritious food.
Unable to replace an essential household item when it breaks.
Unable to keep up with decent shoes and clothes when children grow.

the definition of poverty in the last post would apply to pensioners too - all except the last of course.
the whole debate about pensioners 'benefits' gets me very irate at the misinformation being bandied around and the resultant hatred of 'baby boomers'
my income is circa 12K p.a on which I pay tax (no NI of course)
my heating bills come to about 1200 p.a. (I feel the cold)
my council tax is about the same (thank goodness for the 25% reduction)
I pay for my TV licence
I do not get cold weather payments
I do not get other freebies available to those on pension credit because I paid into a private pension which gives me an annuity of around 4K a year (not index linked)
my savings are losing money and are needed for big expenditures.

I would happily lose the bus pass (not many buses where I live)
BUT
the winter fuel payment is PER HOUSEHOLD and for single pensioners like myself who live in fuel poverty it is an essential help.
again it comes back to what is considered 'well-off' and I fear it will be those not on pension credit.
this govenement is rapidly losing my vote.