Jimmy Savile

No wonder he got away with it - apparently when David Steel was told that Cyril Smith had been assaulting children in the home he helped to set up, his comment was 'Well, he only smacked a few bare bottoms'. Can you imagine the humiliation those helpless children felt?

I didn't know that, Greatnan. What a horrible man.

JO5 thanks for the link, it made very uncomfortable reading.
But I come back to the thought that all paedophiles are experts at dissembling.
I'm glad that the N.Wales cases are being re-examined in the light of current thought, we may get to the actual truth.

Yes. Just because the BBC did their usual with that programme back then, certainly doesn't have to mean there is no truth in the rest of the rumours.

There are quite a few politicians, past and present, who have been known to assault children. Evidenced accounts abound on the internet. High profile politicians and celebrities are named and cross-referenced with investigated incidents. It concerns me that the police have abundant evidence, but for political reasons may yet again be prevented from using it. I hope that the re-investigation of the North Wales abuse in care homes is done thoroughly this time. So much corruption that has tentacles reaching into child disappearances and deaths.

Greatnan one of your previous posts from 3/11 has been on my mind.

You mention the girl who accused three social workers of abusing her and how this turned out to be false.

In a case like this, surely it must be possible that the accusations are actually true but that the girl became confused about dates, intimidated by lawyers when being questioned and so on? Having a troubled past with a mother who was a prostitute I can see would also make her a less credible witness, but should it?

Of course you would know more about this particular case than I, but it does remind me of points that have been made about the difficulty of knowing for sure what happened. We have said that abusers often come over as caring and innocent victims of wrongful accusation.

Incidentally, I do not know why you call satanic abuse accusations ludicrous. I've always thought it is very likely that this kind of thing takes place.

And as for counsellors planting suggestions in women's minds that they have been abused when they have not, this might happen occasionally but not all the time. Traumatic memories can be blocked and then emerge at a later time, sometimes, but not only, during counselling. The concept of 'false memory' became a standard defence to discredit women making accusations against their abusers.

Having said all that, I do agree that some people make false accusations for attention or monetary gain. The problem is knowing which ones.

The satanic abuse allegations did turn out to be ludicrous. After families went through much torment.

Maybe in that particular case. On the other hand we castigate those who ignore possible abuse instead of doing something about it and knowing the allegations were ludicrous was with hindsight.

Also, why ludicrous rather than just untrue? Are we saying that it is ludicrous to suppose that any human beings would do such a thing or just that those particular people would?

I knew the girl was inventing one story, because I knew where she was when the abuse was supposed to be taking place. She appeared several years later on some TV programmes, talking about all the abuse she said she had suffered. She was extremely convincing. None of the house fathers she accused had ever had problems with other children and it started to ring a bell with social services when she made accusations about every single home.

Satanic abuse allegations were investigated several times and not a shred of evidence was found. There are, of course, some African Christian sects now operating in London which purport to be able to beat the devil out of people.

There are still some very dodgy people around, supposedly treating patients who actually need proper counselling or therapy. Valerie Sinason of The Clinic for Disassociative Studies in London is one such 'expert' and several families have been torn apart by members claiming to have 'recovered' memories of abuse. Carmanthenshire Council has close links with the US Christian fundamentalist Mercy Missions, which run homes where emotionally disturbed young women are 'treated' with techniques such as intensive bible study and the casting out of demons. Two of their homes in Sydney were closed when the Sydney Morning Herald exposed their cruel and medically unproved techniques. More on this subject can be found in Private Eye dated 2nd November.

Most people thought it was pretty ludicrous to suggest that an elderly minister was prancing around in the nude in the Orkneys in the depths of Winter.
Petallus, if you don't want to be convinced, that is up to you - we can only give you the facts.

True petallus.

Try looking at 'South Ronaldsay Child Abuse Scandal'.

I am very willing to be convinced Greatnan and jO5

My point was that we cannot know for sure whether allegations, whether from 'recovered memories' or not, are definitely false.

Yes, unfortunately families are torn apart.

Some years ago I did jury service where a family member was accused of abusing his grandchildren (fondling). It was a harrowing experience just seeing what had happened to a once close and happy family.

The accused denied the accusations throughout but was found guilty.

Of course there are incompetent, unscrupulous counsellors about but the vast majority try to work in an ethical, proper manner. A good counsellor would never lead or make suggestions.

Too much absolute certainty bothers me.

Beyond reasonable doubt will suffice for me.

Well, it was your comments on the girl falsely making accusations that interested me in your post of 3rd Greatnan. I just thought, how awful if she was telling the truth, at least in one of the cases.

Decided to post my thoughts.

However, having now done so I am very willing to leave it at that.

The moral panic about ritual/satanic/sadistic abuse in Rochdale occurred when I was a rookie probation officer, and we were all sent to conferences to look at how this had arisen and what facts/evidence were known. It seems stories were circulated on one very large well known housing estate with a high level of deprivation. Misinformation and malicious behaviour, such as telling the authorities that a family whose children were already in care, had buried children's bodies in the garden, were investigated and rumours spread like wildfire when the garden was dug up and bones were found - as it turns out, a family pet of previous tenants. The hostile relationship between tenants and the authorities worsened, every case of child protection was looked at with suspicion by the residents, and children were kept in care for their safety when neighbour rounded on neighbour. Families were moved and some correctly reunited with their children after undergoing procedures to ensure the children were less likely to be at risk of neglect or abuse.

As usual, the papers had a field day. So many residents wanted to give stories to the gutter press. The authorities could not give confidental information, such as the facts about sex offenders saying their children had been wrongly taken away when they were being routinely abused. There were nuggets of truth in the middle of this mess. Children did need protection, some had been threatened with satanic abuse in the same way that parents would threaten police and prison, children in care did need to be with foster parents and were not returned to parents afterwards, as decided by family court judges with the help of professional assessments.

There have been a few cases of ritual abuse known here and in the USA, very few. Interestingly, those Rochdale children will now be adults. They have not come forward to say they were unfairly placed with foster parents.

It was the Orkney one I was talking about tbh. (Awful there seems to be other cases!)

Thanks for that very interesting, informative and above all balanced account of what happened in Rochdale whenim64.

The press have a lot to answer for.

'^Most people thought it was pretty ludicrous to suggest that an elderly minister was prancing around in the nude in the Orkneys in the depths of Winter.^'

Precisely Greatnan but then is this not the tactic used by abusers (and other criminals) - to up the ante to such a degree that it is unbelievable, focus (the media will be very helpful in this respect) on these 'ludicrous' allegations, which are easily disproved because they never happened. Meanwhile, evidence of the very real abuse is lost in the witch hunt.

[Same kind of tactic used by politicians who let slip that they are planning to, for instance, abolish ALL Child Benefit, affect loads of fake indignation and then quietly withdraw SOME Child Benefit.]

The Courts are a very blunt instrument to use to tackle abuse, particularly abuse within a family, because the prosecution must concentrate on that which can be proved whilst the defence will put the emphasis on any allegation which cannot be proved e.g. through lack of corroboration or the wrong date in a statement. Most of my working life was spent supporting victims of abuse and I cannot recall a single instance of a court case which reflected the reality of what had actually taken place.

Absolutely granny23! Children will say enough, but not all, of what they have suffered. The reality of what abuse they have had imposed on them will never match what results in a conviction. I have seen child protection police officers in tears when offenders get acquitted for lack of 'good' evidence, or they get away with pathetic sentences that are insufficient to ensure they go through rigorous treatment. It's not a case of there being no such thing as extreme abuse, recovered memories, satanic or ritualistic abuse. These rare phenomena do exist, and there are too many missing children who will never be found.

Some victims of abuse don't make good witnesses, but that doesn't mean nothing happened. Some people tell lies about being abused by one person, but we should consider why they need to do that? How have they been neglected or harmed in other circumstances, that they feel the need to make such allegations? The court case doesn't always resolve what has gone before.

I know full well that many abusers get away with it (when you have judges who think girls of eight are 'no angels' it is not surprising). However, I also know that some girls (and boys) make malicious or mischievous claims against teachers and ruin their lives. Doctors are also at risk of false claims, sometimes from women who have convinced themselves that they are having some kind of relationship, or who are angry because they have been gently repulsed when they have made overtures. It is impossible for a doctor to have a chaperone in every consultation, so it is very easy for women to make these claims. With teachers, a whole gang of pupils can concoct a story together.
I believe the Orkney case was complicated by the fact there had been some genuine abuse in one family, who were not popular in the area.
The Satanic abuse hysteria seemed to have resulted from one 'expert' who had been to the USA and was convinced it was widespread.

Yes, Greatnan I had premises for female offenders before retiring, some of whom would occasionally make malicious allegations of abuse in order to avoid all sorts of consequences. The majority had genuinely suffered child sexual abuse, and one distressing result of keeping secrets as abused children is learning to tell unnecessary lies, for some of them who start offending themselves. Getting in trouble for breaching parole was easier to try and duck by alleging a sexual assault, or claiming they were attacked after spending the night with a boyfriend. They wasted police time, but none of those allegations went as far as court. From experience, and I can't prove it, I would say it's a very rare case that gets as far as a 'perverting the course of justice' conviction for lying about abuse. The cases are so exceptional that they do indeed, make national headlines. It's usually the opposite - the rate of attrition of those cases that actually get reported is massive, and a small percentage result in convictions. We really do need a criminal justice system that leans towards believing children when they complain about abuse.

Do you still not have it in the UK, when? I know all sorts of institutions are supposed to have child protection procedures in place but I can well believe they are not being implemented in some cases.
I wonder how a defending barrister feels when they hassle a child until it is totally confused?

Child protection is in place, Greatnan but our adversarial CJS does nothing to encourage victims to face court. Help from witness support and police is invaluable, but they can't coach or motivate witnesses/complainants. It's daunting enough for a professional to be quizzed by a smart-arse barrister....