The end of the welfare state, or is it?

Depressing reading annodomini

The problem is there is a limited amount of money available and those people living on benefits as a lifestyle choice are taking the money away from those who really need it.

I am not talking about people in genuine need - they are the ones the welfare state was designed to help. I think that probably the majority of us know of people who could work but choose not to.

Further evidence that it is the poor who will pay for the failure of successive governments and the greed of the bankers.

The key to dealing with social deprivation is PREVENTION. It is about putting in the help in child centres, support for failing parents etc. before the situation reaches crisis point. There is certainly no money going into this and the result will be more need and deprivation for the underfunded services to pick up.

These cuts are hitting the poorest and most disabled rather than those who caused the problem - the EU/banker/House of Lords gravytrains just keep on rolling.

The real catastrophe from my point of view is that funding for the arts and for libraries are the mark of a civilized society and these are being cut too - I really think this is a frightening development. Of course the care of the sick/disabled/poor comes first, but when a society starts to cease to care about arts/reading etc it has come to a sorry pass. Some LAs have completely cut their arts funding - what a disgrace.

And some LAs have closed all their public toilets - what does that say about our situation?

Barrow - no, I don't know anyone personally who could work but chooses not to - I have two grandsons in East Yorkshire who are desperate for any kind of job they could get. The tabloid press loves to depict anybody on benefits as scroungers but it simply is not true of the huge majority of claimants and is very hurtful to them.
The bankers whose greed caused the financial crisis continue to receive their huge salaries and bonuses and nobody has been prosecuted to date for the obviously fraudulent behaviour.
My father always said that the Tories created unemployment in the 30's because it meant that the employers had the workers at their mercy.
The relentless targeting of the old, the disabled, the sick, the unemployed will continue as long as those in power are hand in glove with big business.
Is anybody still glad that they voted to allow Eton to run the country?
Please - don't anybody tell me that the last Labour government was just as bad - Blair and his cronies were just thinly-disguised Tories.

Greatnan my comments were not aimed at people like your grandsons but at those who don't want to work

If more was done to discourage those who choose not to work there would be more money available for those who genuinely need it.

I know of several people who are like this and it really annoys me. The problem is they know the system inside out and as a result run rings around those who are trying to administer it.

I'm just about to enter the benefit system for the first time in my life and tbh I'm lost in the maze of benefits. Apparently I should have put a claim in for ESA last June but as I was on half pay I didn't realise I would be able to. I thought I had to wait until January 2013 when I'm officially unemployed. Then there is housing benefit and council tax benefit. The housing benefit has a limit which is fair enough as I don't see why people should live in Kensington (yes I'm embarrassed to say I read the DM) but the system says that because I live in a two bedroom house I have too many bedrooms and should move to a one bedroom property. The fact that they don't seem to exist isn't taken into account. The government directives mean the local authority will only pay me what they say a one bedroom property would cost (£299 a month) rather than the £425 that my little two up two down costs me. I don't live in a palace or a mega rich area. I have looked but there is nothing to rent at £299 a month.

I have been told that in order to receive ESA I will need to be examined by one of their medical assessors. The problem is that I amongst other things I have agoraphobia. To my surprise I was told they'll probably do it over the phone. I wonder how they can judge my health over the phone.

Rather than make life difficult and cut the benefits of the truly needy (I admit some are conning the system) wouldn't it make more sense to go after the fit first. I know so many people who have lived on benefits all their lives. There is nothing wrong with them and many work cash in hand as well as claiming. These are the people who should be obliged to take any work. My husband was an area manager and now he's a cleaner because a job is a job. No one who is fit should be allowed to simply claim JSA for years and years. Also when they apply for jobs and get interviews they should be obliged to attend. When my husband was an area manager he wasted hours waiting to interview people who never showed up because the system says that people have to prove they've applied for a job not that they've attended the interview.

The loss of the NHS and welfare state terrifies me but making pariahs of the old and sick isn't the way to sort it out. We have got to change the 'why work' culture.

Very good luck to you VQ. ESA is a minefield - just ask jeni - seriously do ask her. She works on the appeals tribunals and has no high opinion of ATOS, the assessment company. To put it mildly.

Yes, good luck VQ when you have never had to apply for benefits it is a totally confusing minefield. When my DH became ill we had no idea what ESA was! The only other time we had made a claim was when I had cancer and then it was called sickness benefit!

The system needs to be tightened up and simplified so that people like VQ can access the help they need quickly whilst ensuring the workshy are weeded out.

A good way to start would be weeding out the businesses that purport to find jobs for the unemployed and have been shown to be fraudulently claiming for successful placements, often for non-existent applicants.

Fraud of any sort should be weeded out and punished. Too many people and businesses have looked upon the welfare state as a cash cow but now things are tougher that has to stop.

I agree Greatnan. All these leeches on the system need to be sorted out. Why do private companies get paid to find people jobs? I thought that was why we have Job Centres. If the money was put into the 'finding work' aspect of the Job Centres surely they would be more efficient and more like to find work for people. It would also stop some of the less .....hmm put in your own word.....companies finding people temporary jobs that last just long enough for them to receive their 'get one off the dole' bonus.

I don't think the JobCentres have a lot of credibility with employers. They have a tendency to ignore your requirements and send applicants who do not meet any of the criteria you have put forward. As an office manager, I have wasted countless hours interviewing people for secretarial and word-processing jobs who have never had their hands on a keyboard, people for basic book-keeping jobs who had no qualifications and, in one case, the person was functionally numerically illiterate! I felt sorry for all these candidates - their time was wasted too, and they must have suffered endless dissolusionment; I had many cross words with the local JobCentre Manager and gave up placing vacancies with them in the end. I know, from talking to people in the same position as me, that mine was not an unusual experience.

Then it's time to shake up the Job Centres. Stop those stupid targets that insist you send people for jobs even if they're not suitable and start looking for work they can do. Instead of spending money on firms like A4E spend it on staff training and improving the system they already have in place.

I have nothing against agencies. I just don't like those companies that get paid to find people work.

It's not a case of going after A and not B. I personally know people who are defrauding the system at both ends of the spectrum. There are those who could work but know every trick in the book how to squeeze money out of the system and maintain a work-free lifestyle. Then there are those on disability benefits, with wheel chairs, who can climb ladders and hang curtains. And those on long term sick leave with 'stress' who boast about how easy it was. I also know self employed who fiddle their tax returns on a regular basis. I don't personally know those who pay into offshore tax havens but I believe they exist.

All the above are draining money out of the system.

Money that could be used to support those with genuine disabilities or needs or money that could go to the NHS to provide cancer drugs which are currently being withheld due to monetary restraints.

I caught part of this programme this morning. It's to be repeated on Sunday evening at 8pm but will be on the radio i-player, I suppose. There are all sorts of opposing views including those of an extremely right-wing Kiwi who, I think, wouldn't draw the line at bringing back the workhouse!

I'm not saying don't go after the 'not sick but on sick' when they're obvious but go after the workshy first. There are too many people who have been on the dole for 20 years or more....my ex BIL has never worked in his life and he's now nearly 60!!!! I know it's hard to get a job these days but to never have managed it in 40 years seems to be quite an achievement in its own right.

Apparently the evidence does not bear out the perceived view that there are huge numbers of feckless families, who for generations have been workless. Apparently the number of long term unemployed is not as significant as the government would like us to believe.

I think the one's like my exBIL are the ones who are noticed by other people especially as he is very vocal about 'idiots who work'.

Greatnan, I will tell you that the last government was not as bad as this one. Lots of work was done to support people at risk of being marginalised, but these things take time. It has all stopped now. Local Authorities have massively reduced budgets. Something has to be cut.
Anno, I weep with you.
I cannot take the cynical view that all political parties are as bad as each other and nothing can be done. You have to keep trying.

I agree, Mamie, it was not as bad as this one and had it not been for Blair it might have been a very good government.

I still think Ed Miliband has a long way to go to be a good communicator, but I do not doubt his sincerity and the fact that he works very hard and genuinely wants to improve the lives of people in Britain. I hope that people will realise that a smooth-talking PR man like the present incumbent may not be all that is needed in a Prime Minister.

One hopes that there is nobody left who has not seen through the self-serving nature of the Etonian Old Boys club. I suppose there will always be a few tribal voters who would vote for a monkey wearing a blue rosette.
I hope Ed Milliband gets a chance and chooses a good team. It is going to be very tough whoever gets the poisoned chalice - I am surprised that anybody would want it.

I agree. Fascinating to see the UMP tearing themselves apart after the election here.