Reduction in starting pay for police

And if comparisons are being made I think hospital consultants and GP's should be added too.

I will consult my police sources, Nfk. I can't believe they will keep quiet about this.

I must say I was rather surprised when it was announced. I would have expected a pay freeze on intro grades but this is quite a drop. That's why I assumed there must have been some tacit agreement with the union.

Could this be a simple supply and demand issue? Apparently, applications to join the police are massively on the increase, as young people are desperate for jobs.

You bet greatnan there are few jobs with such good prospects and pension.
ALso it is being applied to new starters not existing employees?
It is interesting to see pay differentials change over the years. Teachers have not done themselves any favours by having so many unions. There is the NUT and then there is alphabet soup. And I should know the difference having been a chair of govs.
One of the big changes in the public sector has been that academics used to be on a par with hospital consultants and the doctors got themselves way out in front. Restricting the supply of training places maybe? But the only consultant I know complains that he would get paid twice as much if he was in France.

I very much doubt if any level of doctor would earn more in France than in England. The average income of a partner in a GP practice, according to the official website, was £106,000, without any extras for 'add ons' and no out of hours duties. For employed doctors, who are presumably less experienced, it was £56,000. The BMA were surprised themselves by the generosity of the package offered by the last Labour government. I suspect the same person did the sums as worked out the cost of the new rail franchise!

One of the things which seems not to have been covered so far is that I think policemen get paid overtime so maybe will get more even from the beginning?

This is just like all the other ways governments try to save us money, there will always be those who lose out and always an outcry but no one ever seems to offer an alternative way to save the money. No, I don't have any ideas either!

Perhaps we should just wait and see if they have difficulty recruiting the calibre of people they want. Presumably there is not a lot of recruiting going on at the moment anyway.

In the private sector there is more supply and demand. I was replaced by 2 people so that cost the company more. When DH retired they promoted someone to his role, gave it a different name and paid quite a lot less.

One solution would be to close all the loopholes which allow large companies to trade offshore to avoid tax, and to stop people who are obviously employees from claiming to be self employed.
Another would be to stop farming out services to private companies that are hopelessly inefficient or even fraudelent, like the ones that are paid to get people into work.
Another way would be to have proper control of public spending on such things as defence contracts.
Or to put in place an efficient regulator for the banks and financial services.
Yet another way would be to stop paying armies of 'consultants' to do work which should be done in-house.
Unfortunately, as long as the people in power have close links with big business none of this will happen. (And I won't hold my breath if Labour gets elected).

I think it is going to be a big task to close those 'loopholes' as most of them come because of international agreements.

The 'farming out of services' should only be done if savings are to be made. If the people who do the 'farming out' are so hopelessly inefficient that they can't draw up suitable contracts and then monitor them they should not be in post. I think that nowadays the ones 'paid to get people into work' are paid by results.

Sometimes consultants are necessary when the people doing the work are unable or unwilling to make the necessary efficiency changes/savings but see the point above.

The company purporting to find jobs has been shown to be fraudulent, claiming payment for imaginary clients, or putting people into short term jobs.
If the officers of the banks who were implicated in the Libor corruption were to be prosecuted and found guilty, their assets could be confiscated as part of criminal gains.
Private Eye is extremely good at 'outing' the fat cats in local and national government, quangoes, unions, charities, hospital trusts, etc. etc. who are milking the economy, customers, contributors, etc. Nobody has sued. I recommend the magazine to anybody who has any interest in politics.

Greatnan your first point is exactly what I have been saying should happen. I do hope it was the civil servants responsible for the contracts who found them out? I believe the current rule is that the person must be in the job for 6 months for the company to be paid.

I think I heard that someone from Barclays is in courst for their part in the Libor scandal as should they all be. Time will tell.

I believe a former employee blew the whistle. Private Eye makes many Freedom for Information requests - sometimes they are denied, which makes them even more determined to find the truth.
Many of us remember the Youth Employment Scheme, where some employers took on young people for the necessary six months, sometimes without giving them much training, then sacked them and took on another trainee - i.e. slave labour. Another scam was the Development scheme for areas of high unemployment. Several firms moved in, took massive government subsidies, then moved abroad to low-salaried countries as soon as they could.
If I sound highly cynical, it is because I am.

I am generalising here!

I have been feeling uncomfortable about the police for a while, and am not sure that I entirely trust them as a public organization. The hierarchy of the Federation, I think, has too many public figures in its pocket, and an understandable, to a point, vested self interest.

I am still worried about institutionalised racism, sexism and homophobia within the force. and a sense of self righteousness from the police hierarchy. Not individuals!

I agree that the job of the police is hard and dangerous. So are many other jobs, in different ways. Many, many police personnel do exemplary work. So do people in other occupations, in different ways.

Police work overtime and get paid for it. Others do, and don't. Police officers can retire quite early (is this still the case?) Others can't.

Still concerned.

Agreed ariadne they have come along way since the "life on mars" days - and the TV programme was a very bland portrayal of the the police force of its day.
But they have a bit of a way to go.

However, what would WE do without the thin blue line . ????????????

I agree we need them, Nonu, but that does not mean that we should turn a blind eye to corruption and bigotry. Their involvement in the phone hacking scandal has yet to be fully investigated, but there was sufficient closeness for Rebekah to be lent a police horse!

Exactly, Nonu! Whatever your view of their pay, 999 is the first number most of us would call in dire emergency!

Agreed, but, as I said, I was generalising.

We do need them, they do, on the whole, do a good job, but that doesn't mean that heir establishment is above interrogation!

I love the fact that at the end of a 999 call there is someone to help if needed !

Anyway off now to have a game or two of crib with hubby . Then a fairly early night as we have a few busy days ahead of us .

I am not totally sanguine about 999 calls always producing help - or at least not quickly enough. I have read of cases where a woman and her daughter, who had learning difficulties, were bullied so much that they killed themselves - they had called the police repeatedly but nobody came.

We need more police officers to ensure that they can protect us. There are times in a nearby city that there have only been a handful of officers on duty at night. A few years ago my daughters were walking home with their friends after a night out. One of the young men with them was attacked for no reason by another group of young men and women. One of my daughter's tried to help him whilst the other phoned 999 only to be told they were number 45 in the queue. Fortunately they were near to one of their friend's home and his dad saw what was happening and came out to help. I dread to think what would have happened had he not been there. The victim was on the ground being kicked in the head. He ended up in hospital for two days.

Nonu Is there really always someone to help if needed at the end of a 999 call? I remember dialling 999 at about eight o'clock one quiet Sunday morning and getting a recorded message: "Currently we have an unprecedented number of calls. If the emergency you are reporting is not life threatening, please contact your local police station. Otherwise, please hold the line and your call will be dealt with when it reaches the head of the queue."

I was expecting it to continue with "press 1 for burglary, 2 for rape, 3 for assault…"

p.s. I love cribbage but have no one to play with these days since my mother's death.

I had a chat with my police source. I don't think the Federation can do much about starter salaries. Recruitment has been more or less frozen for a couple of years, so doubtless they will have a stream of applicants when they open the doors again. The most bizarre thing is that the new starting salary for PCs will be less than for Police Community Support Officers, though of course the future prospects are greater.

Absent , not only is there help at the end of 999 but I get as i have just now ,a call to tell me when there have been local breakins .

That is service !