Thatcher has died

gilly I think you may have solved a conundrum DH and I have been talking about for years. That must be why every time we pass roadworks we count one person working and about 5 standing around vaguely watching what is going on - H & S

Perhaps it also explains why there has to be 5 miles of coned off lanes on the motorway for a 10 foot bit of work.

bluebell as your daughter worked in HR I am surprised she was so distressed. She would have known her rights and would have known there was no possibility she would have been unfairly disadvantaged by being on maternity leave. The opposite is the case. I don't really think she needed the union although others might have.

You are kidding Sel it's 10 times worse. Think long term? I have been here for over 20 years and I think I have "done a long term" don't you?

bluebell ooops

gillybob it's not a job when it's your own business. Think long term

The vast amount of companies are SME's and they do not have either the staff levels or the resources to employ someone who's sole responsibility is H & S or even HR. they tend to have dogs-bodies like me who have to do everything from payroll (don't get me started with the tax man). the VAT (see previous) HR, H & S, quotes, insurance(s), vehicles, orders,invoicing, book-keeping, making tea, entertaining visitors, washing the bloody floors, emptying the bin......

God I hate my job.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gillybob I could not agree more

Most companies have HR and H & S Depts to ensure compliance with current legislation. If a company doesn't comply, there are legal remedies.

Speaking of the sometimes ridiculous emphasis put on H & S these days. we are required to fill out a full risk assessment on any work we do. This often takes many hours to do and contains such stupid things as......

Task.... remove bolt from machine

Risk..... Machine is quite large. Bolt situated above ground level. Engineer needs to reach bolt. Will need to use steps.

Action point..... Carry (yellow)steps to machine site. Put up sign drawing attention to Engineer working above ground level. Position second engineer at base of steps whilst Engineer removing bolt.

That is just for one bloody bolt a full strip down or installation job will be pages and pages long.

and its all for insurance purposes not to look after the welfare of the workman/woman.

Oh, and if it wasn't for the teaching unions many local authorities would still be refusing to address the issue of asbestos in the fabric of school buildings. Sadly, for some, not all, employers, unless they are forced, they will not act in the best interests of their workforce.

absent I am sorry you misread my post to agapanthus I was thanking her for doing the job for me.

Another example. There were 49 deaths in the construction industry last year. Part of the reason for that was the fact that many companies force workers to be 'self employed' rather than directly employed. This gives these companies a lot of leeway over H&S measures. UCATT has a campaign at the moment trying to get Boris Johnson to support this - to no avail.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Unions do an enormous amount of individual case work inbetween calling strikes and holding the country to ransom

Exactly Sel (Re; Bob Crow) The man is so powerful he can bring the country to a standstill and uses nasty little blackmailing tactics in order to meet the unreasonable demands of his members.

Greatnan I think you will find that these days most employers take the Health and Safety of their employees very seriously indeed and certainly don't need a union to tell them how to do it.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yes Greatnan every business has to comply with Health & Safety Regs. My son works for a large company in sustainability, he wanted surplus wood to be used to make picnic benches for the workmen to use at lunchtime in the summer. The men were happy to do it in their own time, H & S stopped it as the benches would be unsafe, the men might fall backwards

Movedalot When I am specifically replying to something a particular person has posted, I invariably address that person. So no, I wasn't specifically replying to you when I said something about not noticing anything that struck me as particularly vitriolic. I can't remember what it is that you said but lots of comments about hatred and vitriol have been posted by various people. I didn't in fact need agapanthus to explain the meaning of vitriolic and I am very surprised that someone who "doesn't do sarcasm" should make such a comment.

H & S on the railways would be governed by Office of Rail Regulation - I was going to say the Health & Safety Executive but thought I'd better Google first

That is interesting, Sel. Are you saying that all companies now promote the health and safety of their employees without any pressure at all being put on them? Or does the pressure come from a different direction?

I can't remember when postal strike ballots were introduced but that is the law now and has been for a while. With a few caveats, I am in favour of that position. Of course there have been union excesses in the past but they were as nothing to the excesses of rampant capitalism in the 19th and early 20th century. But amongst all those excesses were wonderful examples - Cadbury, Salt, Fry, Rowntree, Shaftesbury so I don't condemn all capitalists and I think it's equally simplistic to condemn all unions. As for Bob Crow, well there are never any H&S issues with the railways now are there? Oh no, no train crashes due to inadequate maintenance - no, of course not.

Mice I certainly don't assume that although I have met many who are Equally don't assume that everyone on the right is incapable of understanding the issues unions were formed to fight for and the need for them, then. I would still maintain that those days, in this country are long gone.

I'm well aware if that, Sel! I haven't lived in a bubble all my life.
And I'm no supporter of Bob Crow. Neither did I support any undemocratic or gender biased policies or behaviour in any union whatsoever.

So I really cannot understand why you say 'in your world' ...' unions are held in high esteem'.

What I do hold in high esteem are the actions of those unions who have stood up for exploited workers, promoted proper Heath and safety action, opposed sexism and racism, campaigned for pension rights and supported the unfairly victimised and bullied and those dismissed for no reason. Vampirequeen has given an excellent example above.

Please don't assume that because someone is on the left and has been active in politics and the unions, that they are incapable of independent thought and unthinkingly support everything that every union does or says.

Vampirequeen - my brother was a merchant seaman for 30 years. He told me that it was a well known fact that the shipping companies would make changes when they knew that the 'ringleaders'- i.e. union activists
would not be able to attend meetings because they were on 'deep sea'
voyages.
He didn't have much time for the Seaman's Union , finding it very ineffective, but they did gradually get some safety rules introduced.
It was obviously hard to get many members to meetings, as they were, by the very nature of their job, likely to be offshore.

Few improvements to the health and safety of employees have been made without long campaigns by unions. Profit for shareholders is the first objective of most companies.

Mice Bob Crow is current

Much as I can understand if this has been your world then that's the way you see it, there is another side where unions are not held in such high esteem.