Thatcher has died

Of course Sel is correct in saying that ballots should be held for strike action. This should have been in place many decades ago. And I've said before, if it hadnt been for Callaghan and his cronies sabotaging In Place of Strife, we would have been spared the Winter of Discontent. I spent more hours than I care to remember in the Women's Section opposing male dinosaurs, some of them from the unions, some not. But, it was difficult for a number of reasons for Labour Party members to defeat the undemocratic systems of some unions, partly because our energies were diverted by trying to also defeat the entryists of the Militant Tendency.

I don't think anyone here is saying Unions good, non Unions bad, but I think those who look to the actions of some of the TU dinosaurs of past and assume that all that unions are concerned about is self interest, need to take a more nuanced position and realise why and how the events of 1979 happened.

No, that would be unworkable. The strikes back pre Margaret Thatcher were numerous and for many struggling to run business or work elsewhere, caused a huge amount of hardship and distress. I don't think the unions give any thought to those they affect. I'd currently cite Bob Crow as a prime example of that mindset. Yes, he's achieved huge salaries for his members but in my eyes, the driving force is greed not concern for the workforce. He does wrap things up with that label though.

That's an interesting point Sel but are you then saying that if a union wants to take industrial action, everyone affected by it should have a vote about whether it should happen?

The strike actions which so damaged many people, not just those involved with heavy industry can't be compared to other elections bluebell I wasn't given the opportunity to vote for or against a strike and nor were millions of others. I make a choice whether or not to vote in the ballots you mentioned.

Did you know that up to the late sixties deep sea trawlers were often sent out in unseaworthy states and had no radio? You didn't know if the ship was lost until it failed to return. Then the Seaman's Mission would go to see the men's families, break the news and offer what support they could. When, where and how it was lost remained a mystery. Accidents on board ship (including deaths) were called acts of God so no compensation had to be paid. Any man who complained or made a fuss was blacklisted by all the trawler owners.

It was the union that fought for the men. It motivated the wives and organised high profile meetings for them with leading politicians of the day.

The trawler owners said they couldn't afford to put radios and operators on every vessel. Nor could they afford constant repairs or to pay for injury insurance. Oddly when they finally had no choice none of the companies went under. Fishing only stopped due to the Cod Wars nothing to do with the unions.

Movedalot - if a rule is introduced about a certain % of workers having to vote for strike action, then where does that leave local and general elections and the recent fiasco of the PCC elections? Democracy?

agapanthus thank you for explaining to absent what vitriolic means. I think it was me she was addressing but I have other things to do with my evening so have only just seen it.

I wonder why people feel they can state what Mrs T thought or felt. How can any of us possible know?

The unions have done good things and bad. Surely no one would suggest that Arthur Scargill was motivated only to get a fair deal for his members when he is quoted as saying something like 'we are not looking for what we deserve but for getting as much as we can'.

I think it is fair to have a law saying a strike cannot be called unless sufficient members have voted for it. Democracy?

Sel I do think unions have generally been a force for good.
Unions have helped saved the country from revolution. I doubt if without unionised action in the past the improvements in conditions and safety issues in what is left of our industry would not have occured.
The unions acheived these gradual changes in conditions in Britain with remarkably little disruption compared with the riots and revolutions that happened in Russia & France etc.

As to your comments about holding the "country to ransom".

Is there much difference between poorly paid miners risking health to dig coal out, and taking a stand for better pay and conditions; or as you put it "holding the country to ransom" and the previous generations of exploitation by their employers.
In times when there was no state benefit the industrialists held their workers to ransom.

Wages were poor and the owners got very rich because of this. They avoided addressing health and safety issues which might slow down production and affect their profits. If you complained you were sacked and faced destituion.
Its not surprising to me that after generations of this sort of treatment working people were not prepared to allow things to go back to how they were.

However I do agree with you that UKIP and the SWP are pretty far out.

This thread could be getting as boring as Pat Condell' s tweets.

Is Pete Murray still around? #fanciedhissocksoff

Eloethan I quite like that remark.

Aspen The title was inherited through his father who acquired his inheritable title at his wife's insistence.

POGS Kuwait and Saddam Hussein? Who were the supporters of and providers of arms, including chemical and biological weapons, to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s during the long Iran-Iraq War? Could it have been the British and American governments?

Pat Condell (@patcondell)
10/04/2013 22:45
Just checked the news. Thatcher still dead. Not much else happening. Just checked again. Yep, still dead. I’ll check again in a few minutes.

POGS Again?

I am a self confessed news and current affairs junkie and am annoyed at the cancellation of many programmes and over-reporting in the normal news slots when I just turn off or flick trough the first 15 pages of the newspaper. How many more people can the media find to interview? Just about every man and his dog have been asked for their opinions. I did hear the item stating the "Government" will pay for this funeral, does this mean the Conservative Party or will it be the unrepresented taxpayer as usual? I hear son Mark is now being addressed as Sir, title inherited through his mother I assume. Does this mean he takes her seat in the Lords? We already have enough unelected criminals in there.

Eloethan

You have missed the point again. Look at the bigger point to the post rather than nit pick.

I could say, Oh Eddie Izard, that fine upstanding chap - quite a catch for Labour. That would be childish.

Oh for goodness sake Eloethan

I wonder if your view of unions and their effect on the economy is directly coloured by past employment. It would be interesting to know what jobs the people who see them as a force for good, did. I remember going down a pit in Wales that's open to the public and hearing the appalling conditions that men worked in and they had no voice, they were at the mercy of the mine owner. Not sure how they became so powerful that they could hold the country to ransom. You've been making the point that what they did affected everyone, every person, every business. I for one didn't elect them and yet believed I lived in a democracy.

I think the situation Liz Fraser found herself in probably exists today, certainly the bias does.

Oh, yes, Jim Davidson - that fine, upstanding chap - quite a catch for the Conservatives.

Sel

I was reading a letter from The actress Liz Fraser today concerning the left wing bias that exists in the industry. She said that after being at a Tory Conference with Jim Davidson, Pete Murray and herself not long after Jim Davidson was widly abused, Pete Murray was sacked and she lost a part in a film.

She said once at a cocktail party in Downing Streeet she met 3 Union Leaders. She said one laughed as he told me how they kept quiet about accepting Thatchers invitations.

Another time she went to a union meeting against Thatchers policies because various studios were shutting down. She told them productions at MGM Elstree had been withdrawn to France another to Hollywood because they refused to have the enormous crews the unions insisted on. MGM closed not long afterwards. She said the unions were too strong and ran like lemmings into the sea of unemployment. A point I have been trying to remind people of, but it is easier to blame Thatcher for everything.

Greatnan you asked me what I considered left/right political extremes (I don't know which thread it was on as there as several similar with multiple pages) and I think you mentioned UKIP and SWP as potential examples. I don't know if there any legal parties that are further out on the spectrum but I would say being a member of either of those two would make one pretty far left or right.

You also asked if I denied that the bankers played their part in the financial crisis, no, I don't, of course they did but the point I was trying to make is that the last Labour Government and many on here find it very convenient to shift all the blame to them. As this is a thread on MT, I won't go on.

I don't think most threads have been vitriolic agapanthus ( Are Agapanthus from the same family as the Allium or ornamental onion? I have them growing in my seaside garden and absolutely adore them) .

I think most people have tried to say what they really feel without going too far. I was a full on Labourite during most of Mrs T's time in power and I think that the hatred and total disrespect show is nothing short disgraceful .

How absolutely pathetic...

I agree POGS there is no unbiased media. The BBC should be, we all pay a licence fee but they aren't. I heard on PM that the song Ding Dong the Witch is Dead is heading for top of the charts, they were considering should they play it on Radio 1, top 10 on Sunday. What have we come to?

Sel

I watched today and I thought it was very good. I thought where there was criticism it was balanced and expected, apart from the one or two who I think made it more about them than Margaret Thatcher .

I wish all the facts and figures were told about her by the media. I think a lot of people would have a better perspective of what is truth and what is political rhetoric that has stuck like the perverbial. Too much to ask for unbiased media coverage about anything these days sadly.