Thatcher has died

Not mourned by me - first woman PM, Iron Lady or whatever - not mourned by me.

Wondering if I forgot to change from 'watching' the Philpott thread.

It has just been announced that the Queen and Philip will be attending Mrs Thatchers funeral .

Can't be bothered to read what has been said previously, have not the time or the interest. Whatever is said about Mrs T, and what she did and didn't do, the following reprobates had sufficient time, assuming the inclination, to cancel them out, why didn't they?

I was wondering about that deserving. Why weren't the decisions taken by Margaret Thatcher between 1979 & 1990 reversed by Tony Blair & Gordon Brown between 1997 & 2010?

Vampire I think your post about the thatcher family is offensive. They have just lost their mother, how would you feel?

I agree with you deserving I am also irritated by so much blame for today's ills being placed at her door. 23 years is surely time to right the wrongs if there was the political will.

Her daughter makes no secret of her poor relationship with her mother and her son used his mother's name to make money in any way he could.

I don't think I was offensive....simply stating facts.

I think you were offensive vampire Do as you would be done by or there but for the grace of God

deserving,*notso*. I agree with your fundamental point, that all governments in some sense are Thatcherite now but if you look at what her governments did - closing down what Kenneth Clark called 'rust bucket' industries, for example, it's irrecoverable. Where the pits were there are now 'industrial estates' (warehouses for supermarkets, food processing factories etc) and even housing developments or giant shopping malls. The steel industry is largely owned by Tata. 'Manufacturing' is largely assembling parts produced elsewhere. We buy cheap clothes made by seven-year-olds in Bangla-desh. Then there was selling off utilities. Who owns those now? Our rubbish is collected by a French firm, our gas comes from Russia. I could go on. And on and on. Closing down heavy industry to win the war with the unions turns out to have been a very hollow victory.

Lily I take on board what you are saying but don't think we can blame MT for us buying clothes from Bangladesh.

Do we have enough gas hidden away somewhere which we could access to save us buying from Russia? I don't know the answer to that.

The rubbish collection is down to your local authority, not central government.

MT was responsible for the closing of pits but if they were so profitable why hasn't a subsequent government reopened them?

Wasn't the steel industry privately owned at the time of MT?

What I am trying to get at is that we have had 23 years to put right anything we feel she did wrong.

Whether or not the Labour Government could have reversed her decisions, which is debatable, how does that make what she did right?
As it is highly unlikely that Carole or Mark Thatcher read this site, I don't think it matters what anybody says about their mother.

It is virtually impossible to reopen pits which have been closed, for practical, not political, reasons.

Whether they read this site is not important , people can still grieve even if as some say the relationship was flawed .

Maybe people can grieve for what can never ever be put right . The opportunity has gone now .

I think it was in poor taste .

Greatnan that is not the point. The point we are making is that it is illogical to blame her for all today's ills.

I agree that we can say what we like about our own mothers but I agree with those who think that it is bad taste for us to say what vampire said.

But how would they know what people have said on this site? How can something they know nothing about affect their grieving? And surely the death of their mother cannot have come as a great shock.
If you put yourself in the public eye, as she did, you make yourself open to having your actions criticised. Many of us would not have said anything had it not been for the fawning , gushing, eulogies from some quarters. We are merely redressing the balance and giving our own opinion. If it upsets some people, that's life!

We have not blamed her for all of the nation's ills - only for her own actions. And taste is subjective.

They have just read the entire speech about 'society' on the PM programme and if you were to hear it all I think you would all agree it made a great deal of sense. It is the media (again!) who took it out of context.

Greatnan I think there have been posts for some time which keep blaming MT for things which could so easily have been changed by others during the last 23 years. That is the point I think we are making.

Agreed that taste is subjective, probably based upon one's own moral code and empathy

Of course we can't blame Mrs T for everything that is wrong today but it now appears, with hindsight, that encouraging what remained of British industry to be sold off or collapse was a serious mistake. You cannot run an economy, it now appears, entirely dependent on service industries, retail and financial services unless a lot of people have the spare cash to keep on spending. Greatnan has made the point about the impossibility of reopening decommissioned mines. Local authorities were forced to 'outsource' services which had always been in-house, like rubbish collection. Just as they were made to sell off council houses and other council property and were prevented from using the income to replace what had been sold. As a result, we do not have enough 'affordable housing' and taxpayers through housing benefit are supporting private landlords who, unlike councils, charge a commercial rate for their property. Not criticising them for that, just pointing out that it is a mad misuse of public funds.

Well, I trust no member would impugn any other member's moral code, Movedalot. After all, who is to be the arbiter of good taste?

Re-opening decommissioned mines would have been unrealistic I agree.
Passing legislation to give the unions back their power would have been relatively easy though, especially with the massive majority for Tony Blair's first term.
I'm not on any one 'side' particularly....just curious.

Blair - the man who was so close to the Saudi princes. How well he has done since his retirement. Hm......

I had nothing good to say about the woman or her family when she was alive and I have no intention of changing now she's dead. Surely to change simply because she is dead would be two faced and dishonest....tbh if that's what's expected then I prefer my 'moral code'.

Some people are wondering why the pits weren't reopened. A pit is like a living thing. It needs nurturing. Without the constant care of engineers the shafts and tunnels flood and/or collapse. Once this happens it's impossible simply to reopen on the same site.

The steelworks couldn't reopen because they no longer existed. The machinery had been sold off and many of the sites had been flattened.

Harrigran...please explain your 'do as you would be done to or there by the grace of god' comment.

Do you mean would I care what people say about me when I'm dead? Well hardly, I'll be dead so it won't affect me.

Do you mean there by the grace of God I might have been related to her? Well in that case I will for once thank God enthusiastically that he fixed it so I wasn't.

We cannot reopen mines for the price the miners were demanding at the time of the closures(pro rata) thats the reason they had to close, we could get coal from Australia, Poland, and other far flung places cheaper than we could produce it. We may need to consider reopening mines, assuming we have any of the expertise to do so, we may need to consider "Town Gas"plants, we were threatened a short while ago with restrictions regarding gas from the continent if the weather didn't pick up.We are however likely to leave it to late as usual.
Buy your clothes for as cheap as you can get them,from where ever. Closing down sweat shops does nothing for the workers thrown out of work,they see nothing of the millions we send them in aid anyway.Time to forget that we were missionaries we created enough trouble in that role anyway.I wish Idi was still available to send us some food parcels.
A small African country was sent millions of tins of tomatoes,surplus due to
a glut.No doubt they were welcomed by many, the result however was the closing down of a local canning plant, that couldn't compete it never opened again, the free tins soon evaporated.
Margaret set out her stall, she was aware the unions were ruining this country all the major industries were being affected,something needed to be done, she started the process, it was carried on by others who could see the sense of it, they could always fall back and blame mrs T, which they did and are still doing.No one person is to blame for the mess we are in, and no one person can get us out of it, it is the same now as it was then.Blame the bankers, it was them that were stupid enough to lend US the money we were clamouring for,we knew better than them that we couldn't pay it back but it didn't stop some, many from running up enormous debts, and claiming even more benefits.
We need to forget we had an empire we are rapidly approaching the bottom of the ladder, we are servicer s, workers for others,we have a few with brains, these are not likely to remain here or be replenished,with the appalling education system we have developed.
"Nuff said"

I can't agree about the sweatshops. I don't want to buy clothese made by seven years olds shut into a factory all the daylight hours God sends. The major charities endeavour to provide alternatives, including making sure the aid is the correct kind and goes where the need is.

Who do you mean by 'Idi'?!

Agree about the bankers.