Appalling News

I was looking up various aspects of Islam on Wiki and came across this interpretation of 'jihad':

Jihad is a religious duty of Muslims. In Arabic, the word jihād is a noun meaning "struggle." Jihad appears frequently in the Qur'an and always used in the nonmilitary sense. A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid; the plural is mujahideen. When a violent act is intended, the Qur'an used the term "Qattal" meaning to engage in killing/violence.

There's so much we don't know about Islam and so much that nobody wants to tell us.

There is so much in the Bible, especially the First Testament, that makes pretty grim reading.

This horrific crime was committed by two madmen, abusing the name of Allah, and I wouldn't call the actions of 2 isolated madmen to be terrorism.

I would guess that calling it terrorism will give the police and courts extra powers. Maybe longer prison sentences - I hope they get life, meaning till they leave prison dead.

Just been to see a very pertinent play at the Bush Theatre, Disgraced. American author addressing the issue of integration and religion. Of those born in the West who have been schooled in a religion based on words written for a society 1500 years ago. Very interesting play with a Muslim lawyer, his white American liberal wife, his nephew who is trying to supress his Islamist upbringing, a more successful black woman colleague and a Jewish art curator who has bedded the lawyer's wife. Sort of ticked every box.

Strong stuff but I felt I learned something of the mind set of young Muslims. When one character said to another 'you're the Niggers now'it caused a very sharp intake of breath from the audience but it didn't half make you think.

Just had someone on Facebook calling for a state funeral for the murdered soldier. Now that really would be inflammatory.
Sel I can imagine that play would really make you sit up and think by taking you inside a multiethnic situation. And an interesting point that all major religions are past their sell by date outdated.

Yes, I had the same facebook request, but i did not sign it as a State funeral would be inappropriate. A good military funeral would be the correct thing, if his family want that. I'm sure the lad would be appalled at the thought of a state funeral.

A sad week for Britain.
Agree "muslim community" is a load of tosh. In our city we have a Pakistani community, a Bangladeshi community, a Somali community (Muslims I think?), another mosque that caters for some middle eastern muslims. A group of muslims (including some women) who are raising money to start another Islamic community centre. Plus other groups probably who don't fit into the above. Where would an Indonesian fit in?
As diverse as Greek Orthodox, Quakers and African Catholics - who would probably not be referred to collectively as "the Christian community".
Didn't Christians invent the holy war when successive Popes pressured Europeans to travel to the middle east on Crusades to try to drive the "infidel" out of Palestine region? And later Ferdinand and Isabella drove the peaceful Moors out of Spain? You can still see the triumphalist paintings in Spanish churches with Jesus or Mary looking smug, with the crescent moon trodden into the dirt beneath their feet.

Even if christians did invent the holy war (though the pope who started the crusades came after those horrid passages in the Koran were written), christianity has moved on a bit since then. Islam seems to have moved backwards.

Both religions are crusading/proselytising religions, actually very similar to each other in many ways including the nastiness in their 'holy' books.

Guilt trips about what happened hundreds of years ago are daft.

But wasn't there in-fighting for control of Jerusalem before the crusades? Isn't that what triggered them?

We need a (preferably several) knowledgeable historian's (historians') perspective(s).

What a diabolical sentence

Nick Cohen in the Guardian on life-defying ideologies.

Mohsin Hamid's novel, 'the Reluctant Fundamentalist', is a fictional account of a high-flying young Muslim's growing isolation (post 9/11) from the culture he whole-heartedly embraces as a recruit to a financial organisation in New York.

Good article, Bags

What I can't understand is why we have allowed these "little" Somalia's , little Pakistan's etc. to flourish to such a point where an ordinary English man/woman would feel like they were trespassing in some foreign country. Why have we allowed signs sating that "Sharia law applies in this area" ?
Surely if someone comes to this country to live then they should integrate with society not try and recreate their own country in Britain.

Not guilt Bags but the Crusades may have helped to shape the world as it is today - and certainly sobering. War crimes aplenty by the likes of Richard Lionheart.
Gillybob what are you suggesting? Legislating over who can buy which houses or set up a business in which districts. Maybe it is because UK people have been unfriendly to the point of selling up and moving out, rather than live next to an immigrant family?
The United States is almost 100% immigrant stock and their problems are mainly routed in history - e.g. slavery - just as ours (such as they are - and I think in general we are doing pretty well) are rooted in colonialism. We would not be the rich country we are today if this colonial past had not happened.

JessM UK people have been unfriendly and would sell up and move rather than live next door to an immigrant family? A broad generalisation surely? I don't know anyone with that implied mind set.

I understand Gillybob's point. There are areas of this country which are alien, where you can walk down the street and feel awkward and not especially welcome. Remember the woman a few months back who after living all her life in South London, moved out because she felt like an intruder. Presumably you would find fault with her attitude.

You mention the US - immigrants to that country had to learn the language and integrate and indeed, they actually were proud to become American citizens. We have welcomed immigrants here for a variety of reasons, as have other countries but if they want to share in the benefits of living in this country then they have to integrate with us, not the reverse.

Sel, if integration has worked so well in the USA, how is it that Spanish is a majority language in some - mainly urban - communities and is rapidly overtaking English in many other areas?

Here's another good article, by Azeem Ibrahim in The Scotsman

I think we're the worst people for not integrating when we relocate to other countries and just expect everyone to speak our language. Having said that, we drove through parts of Wolvehampton a few weeks ago and, for quite a long time found ourselves not seeing anyone of English descent; I have to be totally honest with everyone [including myself] and say I found it very unnerving. Then again, I love the way that other countries have enriched our society; look at how we dress these days and curry has become our favourite national dish.

I am not "suggesting" anything JessM just merely pointing out how sad it is that areas of the country have become alien to a lot of people. I do not agree that "UK people are unfriendly........" at all. I facts I would say exactly the opposite and to suggest that someone would move house rather than live beside an "immigrant family" is nothing short of ridiculous.

I totally agree Sel the American immigrants became proud Americans who speak English. There are obviously people in this country who spend their time plotting against Britain (which makes me wonder why they choose to remain here) and even more who still refuse to speak English.

Not wishing to nitpick, but not all those who fail to learn English refused to do so. Some people, especially older people, and especially those not literate in their own language, just can't manage it. It is really very hard learning a foreign language as an adult. Women at home, surrounded by people speaking their native language, just don't always get the chance to learn. Their husbands, going to work, have a much better chance.

Good article, Bags - thanks. There are quite a few terrorists in UK high security jails, separated from other offenders and who have been coming out of prison to probation supervision with very tight parole licence restrictions. Religion tends not to feature highly for many of them. In probation hostels, there is an obligation to provide privacy for Muslim prayer and sufficient access to a local mosque (in the company of a Muslim member of staff or under police surveillance, if necessary). Few take up these opportunities. Some of them describe themselves as 'curry Muslims' meaning that their access to the food they prefer is all they are concerned about. That, and the fact that they are alive and don't want other offenders to find out about their offences.

I wonder if we should have left this thread with dizzyblondes post of Thu 23-May-13 19:35:01.

The poor man has been forgotten.

Perhaps we should have had a separate thread to put our views across.

I wondered about starting a new thread too, jings, but the discussion of the whys and wherefores are inextricably linked with what happened to Lee. I have not forgotten him at all and I doubt if others have.

Given the general anti immigrant rhetoric in Britain I would feel terrified if I was, say an immigrant from the Indian subcontinent.

Unless I was well educated and of good social status I would probably be a woman with very little independent status in my own family and possibly completely illiterate in my own language. I have been dragged off to cold hostile foreign country with no consultation, and have to face a very different culture. I have possible never been allowed or encouraged to go out alone.
Added to this my basic skin colour would make me stick out like a sore thumb. In those circumstances I would only want to stay with the people I could communicate and feel safe with.

Language learning is best done when very young. I think most peoples brains lose the ability to do this so effectively during their teens.

A lot of British ex pat in non English speaking countries are fairly bad at not mixing in with the local population.

britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=684721
And thats expats themselves saying this.

Having moved away recently from our multi-ethnic capital city to a small commuter town I sometimes miss the mix of people I would be with in shops etc. There is a buzz living in a big metropolis where people of many different background mingle..and they do. But I have been upset by the attitude of some close friends who feel that because I am no longer in London my life is narrower and that my neighbours and new community will be bigots and racists. There are people locally who probably are bigots and racist but there were in Sth London too!
They say their kid's families could not move out of London because the grandkids are mixed race and they would find it difficult. I understand what they mean but if they, as an intelligent and capable family , don't feel able to move into a predominantly white area how are we ever going to integrate more widely?? Think that is a bit weedy when you think how hard the Windrush passengers and others struggled to make a positive life here against huge (mainly London) racists!