Living Wage

Exactly gillybob. We are being encouraged to think that such measures will make a real and lasting difference to ordinary people's lives, in fact the very wealthiest in our midst amass even more wealth at the expense of everyone else.

I agree with pretty much everyone here especially comments made about zero hour contracts which seem to allow big businesses to shirk their responsibilities towards their employees by denying them almost every thing from sick pay, holiday pay, pensions etc. These employees, most I imagine would rather not be on these contracts, as how can anyone financially plan for anything at all. So through no fault of their own, presumably they will then have to have any shortfall topped up by the tax payer in housing benefits and working tax credits etc. which is really allowing businesses to run their companies entirely on their terms and to rob tax payers at the same time. The worst culprits such as Amazon etc are not paying the tax they should be paying anyway.

However, having said all that, are zero hour contracts and the minimum wage merely a consequence of globalization anyway. If there is a transient or even more settled work force ready to work for anything they are given, as often it is a lot more than any remuneration they could expect in their own country, then what hope is there of implementing better pay and proper contracts.

Finally, it would help if certain politicians who are supposedly campaigning for the living wage, didn't employ interns on expenses only. Internships pre suppose you have a mummy and daddy who will be able to support you well past university and this will rule out anyone who isn't from that demographic. I thought they were trying to level the playing field. Practice what you preach!

Absolutely agree re internships bananas a form of nepotism and sometimes a form of exploitation. I was watching a program last week about a determined young woman from a very poor background (slums) of Manila who had done a six month internship in Citybank. She got a job in the end - but a six month interview???

The owners of many small businesses work more hours and get less wages than their employees. It is easy to generalise and use' Politician Speak", we all want everything for everybody, its pie in the sky.Some might be able to afford the price increases that would inevitably ensue, but those that are being considered might not. If the businesses close down as a result of, an across the board,implementation of this proposal, we will have more on "the dole"and in poverty.Perhaps the money we give to countries to fund rockets to Mars programmes would be better spent on "our own"?

I see your point of view deserving, my husband ran a small business for many years employing half a dozen people and yes too much unnecessary red tape from central government can cripple a small business, particularly when they can't always meet certain directives. I do think successive governments, in spite of what they say, have not always been on the side of small business, and of course when a small company goes down the tubes it can have a knock on effect. My comments were really aimed at large corporations turning over millions, possibly billions, making enormous profits but not offering their staff basic benefits.

My DH and I run a small business (actually we are classed as a micro business as there are only 7 of us in the company). I do not think any of the political parties understand the realities of owning/running a small business such as ours although they all talk the talk and make empty commets such as "small businesses are the backbone of Great Britain". I would honestly not wish the stress of running a small business on anyone and unless you have tried it you really can't begin to understand. Sleepless nights worrying about paying suppliers, sleepless nights worrying about the tax man or the VAT man (both of which are enough to send shivers through the spine of any small business owner) sleepless nights wondering how you will manage to fit 36 hours worth of work into an 8 hour day (my DH). Succesive governments pile on the legislation and red tape without a care in the world and then fine you when you fall foul of it. Imagine working for free as a tax collector and then being penalised and fined because you pay the tax a day late?

I understand and sympathise Gilly, especially your remarks about being a tax collector.
I once got a threatening letter from the Revenue saying I was behind with my NI payments for my employees, and I would be subjected to fines etc if it wasn't paid within a certain time.
I knew I had paid, so rang them up. They confirmed I was behind and could be liable for a £1K charge.
To cut a long story short, I had inadvertently transposed the two digits in the pence column when making my online payment. So instead of paying £1000.43 or thereabouts, I had paid £1000.34 - I owed them 9p and this had resulted in a really unpleasant letter and telephone conversation.

Then there was the smoking ban. No-one had ever smoked on my premises, and if they had would have been politely asked to do it outside, but I was suddenly required to put up signs telling everyone it was illegal, and if I had not put up the notices, or had anyone had the temerity to smoke on the premises in defiance, it would have been I who was liable to prosecution, not the person doing the smoking.
As you say, no-one in Government understands the stresses, and you would really think they would be grateful for anyone who was employing people, contributing to the economy through manufacturing, or providing a service.

My recent "dealings" with the tax man have caused me no end of stress and worry. We had an arrangement in place to pay a £10k corporaton tax bill for 2011. The arrangement was that we paid £1000 per month for 10 months (which virtually crippled us) and the accumulated interest at month 11. seven payments had been made without any problem and then I noticed that the month 8 payment had not been taken. I spoke to our bank who told me the direct debit had been cancelled. I contacted the tax office to ask what was going on only to be told that the arrangement was cancelled as they had not received the monthly payments on time and as agreed (???????) I asked where the monthly payments were going to as the money was definitley leaving our bank. After 2 weeks of absolute hell (and I mean hell) I was finally told that the payments were being received after all but were going into a suspended account (where missing payments are held) and not being allocated to our account at all. I was relieved and furious at the same time. Did I get an apology? No way. I am now fighting with them to agree to cancel the interest that they have kindly added to the interest when they did have the money al the time. I am sorry to make a sweeping remark such as this but I HATE THEM FOR THE SHIT THEY PUT YOU THROUGH.

Sorry to have diverted this thread into slagging the tax man.

And yes jane I know what you mean about silly things like it being illegal not to display a poster its pathetic. We have that many health and safety posters and warnings that you can barely see any walls. saves decorating I suppose.

GillyI wish you were on FB as you would have seen an extract from our latest BT bill.
I had to phone the Revenue last month with a query about my self-assessment.
When I looked at the BT itemised bill, it said:
5.10.13 HMRC B*st*rds 4.32
I copied this to my FB page and at least one of my FB friends thought it was spam and dodgy, but it was completely genuine.

That's wonderful Jane!

The more I read about running a small business the more I'm amazed that anyone does!

Getting back more to the OP, I met a Dutch couple on holiday who said that in Germany there's no minimum or living wage which is why they're doing so much better than the rest of Europe. Can this be true?

Germany do well for a variety of reasons but paying poverty wages is certainly not one of them!!

It is true they don't have a minimum wage but that's not why they do well - they have a very different mind set to investment etc

When you think how many of the problems we have that are due to understaffing; long waits when you call Call Centres, lack of nurses and care staff in hospitals to name but 2. Think what a massive boost it would give the economy if companies and government recruited enough staff to do jobs properly the first time round rather than constantly justifying, inquiring into and compensating people for the poor care/service they received because of inadequate staffing.

Combine with the living wage, the higher costs could be justified by the higher wages and standards of living. Poorer people are far more likely to spend any extra money they get rather than save it, which the better off are more likely to do. Moreover as all the industries involved are in the services not manufacturing industries our exporting industries will remain competitive.

I own a small business and like others on here, I work longer hours than my employees and I am last to get paid. I do pay my staff over minimum wage, but not quite living wage as frankly, my customers would cancel. I have a domestic cleaning business, and I have absorbed the annual wage increases for the past three years, along with all the other increased costs of running the office. A few weeks ago I sent polite letters to some long established clients, advising them of a 12p (yes!) increase on their hourly invoiced rate, reminded them that I had not increased my rates for three years and assured them that the 12p was going in its entirety to my staff, i.e. their cleaner.The staff actually received an increase of between 15p and 20p per hour. So far I have lost four clients, who will no doubt go and get another cleaner, pay them cash and then nobody benefits. I would love to know what MPs pay their cleaners! On a slightly different note, my biggest problem is being honest and being vat registered, thus being immediately 20% more expensive than anyone working in the brown envelope economy.

GillT57. Your story shows what is so wrong with the British economy and this is encapsulated so well the thread Jendurham has started (anti-life economics).

If it's any consolation GillT, my cleaner comes via a domestic cleaning business, and the owner does pay VAT, according to the invoice, so you aren't alone.
I too know what it's like to run a business ethically and suffer financially

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2013/11/06/should-we-report-the-employers-who-cant-afford-to-pay-the-living-wage-to-atos/

But the point is, jendurham, that it is not only the employer who benefits from low wages being supplemented with tax credits, is it?
It is also the consumer, many of whom are on low wages themselves.
If the employer has to put wages up, costs go up.
There are only two people who can pay this increased cost - the employer or the consumer of the product or service.
I know we like to blame the large companies who make huge profits for everything, but the truth is that there are many small businesses which struggle to pay the owners a decent wage too - never mind the holiday pay, sick pay and pensions that many employees take for granted.

Grangemouth.
Do you want the wage you've got, or would you rather be out of work?

I really cannot believe that some of you are saying that workers should not be paid an extra £1 per hour for the work they do.
There is a TUC conference in South Shields where they have announced that 22% of the workers, i.e., 213000 people, in the northeast are paid the minimum wage. If they are then paid the living wage that will put an extra £139 million into the economy in the area.
I do not think the workers at Grangemouth were arguing about the minimum versus living wage, deserving.
The point is, Janeainsworth, that no consumer should not be on such low wages that he or she has to rely on government handouts as well. The TUC says that government coffers will gain from introducing the living wage.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2013/11/08/ha-joon-chang-nails-the-anti-living-wage-lobby/

It's not easy is it. A low wage economy with people needing benefits to survive is not in the interests of government and taxpayers. Higher wages are not in the interests of customers because they make things more expensive. Small businesses are caught between a rock and a hard place - if they pay higher wages, and they have to put up prices, they often suffer if their competitors are not doing likewise.

But Jess - higher wages equal increased spending power which benefits services and businesses

As I mentioned in an earlier post the living wage will not take families out of the benefits trap. The living wage is still not a enough to live on without some kind of top up.

We do not pay minimum wage or living wage but I do know how much we can charge our customers (we only do work business to business) and I cannot charge a penny more than the going hourly rate. Most small businesses operate on minimum profits and as has been previously mentioned when there is a cashflow problem it is usually the business owners who go without. Speaking from my own experience my DH and I have run this business for over 20 years. We are financially worse off now, than we have ever been, we have plunged our own pensions (which are now non existant) into the business in order to keep the guys in work and recently downsized our home in order to be-able to live cheaper. I fully realise that we will probably never retire. We are worse off in time too as my DH (who is now 62) is working a typically 75 hour week as we cannot afford to take another person on to lighten the load and nor can we afford to pay the guys the overtime to allow them to take over.

There are some ruthless business owners out there who put themselves first living in flash houses, driving the most expensive cars whilst they pay their staff peanuts but mostly we are decent people who really care about the people we employ. We are like a family and I do not joke when I say I love our guys, they have been loyal to us through thick and thin and I would love to pay them another £1 an hour but we physically cannot. There is no bottomless pit of money.

Would love to frame your BT bill Jane and have it hanging on my office wall. I am sure it would cheer me up.