Living Wage

I think this is true Stansgran. But you know, if someone has a great deal of sorrow in their lives it's probably better for them to remove themselves from this sort of attack. It's not being in a 'huff' but self preservation. And why should any of us have to be subjected to personal attacks. As has been said up thread, robust debate about the issues is one thing. Nastiness is quite another.

I don't think it's a case of 'leaving in a huff'; sometimes a comment from someone can be so hurtful you just have to get away, and it's compounded by other people seeming to back them up. None of us have to be here and if we find that it's not adding to our lives in the way it should it's best to have a bit of a break.

A hurtful comment on top of other issues not involving gransnet may simply be the last straw for someone. Later they may feel better able to cope and then return.

Getting back to earlier discussions I think that one of the reasons Germany is successful is their work ethic. I have worked with many nationalities and the Germans do show commitment at work.

I wonder where it starts, this feeling that it's ok to just take a day off work? When my children were at school if they had a day off sick they stayed in the house, whereas sometimes their friends would be 'off sick' and there would be phone calls asking for someone to come round and play with them or even trips to MacDonalds. When my daughter first started work she used to phone me up for 'permission' to have a day off and I used to have to tell her that a]she would get better quicker if she had time off and b]she would be spreading infection if she went to work. A work colleague of the S.O's had been off work for ages, but phoned in to find out when the Christmas party was so she could go [she was told not to bother]. Maybe it's this 'first week self certification' that causes problems? I have to admit to having a 'sickie' one day when I first started work; was somehow persuaded by a friend to go shopping with her. Nearly 46 years later, I still feel guilty about it; needless to say I never did it again. Although I never felt that I was any more valued at work than the people that were off a lot. Employers don't seem to have the power to calls anyones bluff when they're off constantly for no reason.

What do you mean "get doon aff mah cuddy"?? I do understand the words, but not the relevance as I am aware of being on any "high horse" by asking why something which obviously upset a member enough to make her feel she could no longer stay with us was described as "funny". You yourself elegran remarked:
"..I missed the deleted post, but the references to it did not surprise me. It appears to me that this poster always despises anyone with an IQ of less than double the average..."
I may be gullible by nature, but am not aware that I have shown signs of it here (this time)- not even 1/10

Don't think I've ever had a day off when I haven't been practically dying.

It appears that apologies are expected?
I agree ,I apologise to Ana. Sorry you have been getting grief for understanding my post and accepting it for what it was and not for what certain people seem to think it was.
I will not be complaining about the blatant personal attacks on me by the "crew" that prior to this week operated sporadically, but now seem concerted. I suspect a lot of pm's have been flying through the ether.

Irrespective of my own salary, (speculated upon) I can see that "the living wage would be catastrophic for many small businesses, and some larger ones as well. The very words, "living" wage are designed to be no more than vote catchers. Who would deny anyone the amount required to live. Much the same as the words, human rights, are used, weasel words, no more.

How can we communicate then, if not by using words? Or is it the use of only two words to encapsulate a subject when you seem to prefer to use several?
or more....

Not wanting to be contentious but having worked in AE and FE for many years, I know that lecturers are often treated very badly in terms of contracts. The hourly pay might seem very lavish if you're on minimum wage but it usually only covers actual teaching, not the hours of course team meetings, examination meetings, training sessions, attendance at open days or enrolment or the preparation and marking. Often there is no security for part-time and temporary staff who might have their contracts terminated half way through a course, or earlier. And universities are going the same way. I hope Archbishop John's initiative leads to a better fairer way of treating all workers.

No PMs anywhere near me, I am afraid, so I must confess to speaking completely for myself when I did not like your post, and when I reminded a couple of posters that there is no need for a fight to break out between them.

I tell a lie - I have had a PM from someone wanting to know whether I can use some help in organising a meeting. Gratefully received, but no mention of you, deserving. I don't believe there is any concerted attack on you, just individual posters who express their independent opinions. As you do.

Deserving , you just seem to speak the way a man would .
Men & women speak in different fashion !

In what way?

IMHO men cut to the chase , where as women tend to couch things in a gentle manner , what is your take on that ?

For Ariadne .

I don't agree Nonu!! (Some) men - especially those in public office tend to verbosity and the theory that you should never use a simple word when there's a really long winded one you could use in its place! (Some) women, on the whole (again I am biased) often choose their words with greater care and economy. Look at someone like Shirley Williams - brilliant writer and speaker but she does not waffle the way many other politicians do. I think if we were judging on "cutting to the chase" we might not assume Deserving is male!

gracemum xxMr n has now come in and is chuffed

Jendurham please come back.

Yes Jen - you will be really missed. I really value your posts - empathy, logic, intelligence, knowledge....

I would like to add to that - don't be driven away jendurham. Wise and articulate comments are valued by most of us.

If you do look at gransnet again jendurham, I hope you see these supportive comments. I enjoy your posts, can't put it any better than bluebell. Empathy, logic, intelligence, knowledge - ah yes, I can add, well written. Gransnet needs contributors like you to contribute to a genuine exchange of differing opinions.

Yes, I echo what everyone is saying Jen. I hope you read this and come back

I presume that when they talk about £7.61 as a living wage, they expect people to live in shared accommodation, because I can't see how anyone could "live" independently on that amount. After tax, NI and rent, there would be bu**er all left to actually live on.

Having just read an article in today's Independent regarding the Eastern European community in Beckton, London, it was mentioned that some of those employed as builders will work for £5 an hour. One Polish man stated that they themselves were worried as a Romanian will do the same job for £4 an hour. The description of their accommodation was six people living in two rooms and it seemed, from this article, that the Eastern Europeans had pretty much tied up the building trade with their girlfriends dominating cleaning and waiting on tables. Allegedly these jobs are rarely advertised in English thus precluding the settled community of all ethnicities in that area, which I thought was supposed to be illegal anyway.

I am wondering what chance we have of implementing a living wage when so many areas are not open to everybody, how is that inclusive and what can be done about businesses who run their operations in these covert and underhand ways. We have already talked about the deeply contentious zero hour contracts, but I feel that we have little chance of getting rid of them when there will always be someone prepared to work for less than the going rate. Yes we all know that Eastern Europeans have a reputation for hard graft. I frequent a cafe in my nearby town run by Lithuanians who manage to be charming and immensely efficient and it makes me feel sad that some of our youngsters do not aspire to be like this. These are the words of one of the men interviewed in the article "why do the English give out £60 a week and a free flat to lazy pigs that don't work" . A massive over simplification of course, but I suspect that many young Eastern Europeans know the only way they will get anything is by working for it and there are no free rides where they come from.

I feel politicians that would wish to implement a living wage might be good at talking the talk but continue to ignore the elephant in the room that comes in the guise of cheap labour from abroad and tend to shut down any debate about it anyway, whist simultaneously wringing their hands about many of our young people languishing on the dole queue who they know are woefully under skilled compared to the new arrivals. Those young people who would be willing to step up to the plate have seemingly to fight a new prejudice now, that of being British.