Child Bride dies

I agree, mice and lily, but we do hear a lot about it affecting muslim women, and other oppressive rules, so it's not surprising people associate the problems with Islam as well as other primitive cultural ideas.

Report of Muslim woman threatened with whipping for not wearing hijab, in Australia.

That's a very good point, MiceElf. I've posted elsewhere about this issue today and it concerns me that by concentrating on any religious involvement, either perceived or real, the campaign ends up diffuse and diluted. Stick to the main issue!

Thank you, Micelf - I will extend my rage to all such men, whatever their religion. However, I think it would give a good example if all religions, including Christianity, removed all distinctions between the respect accorded to men and women. And I don't buy the 'equal but different' argument - opportunities should be equal for all.

Greatnan, I have in front of me an article in The Guardian reporting a UN study on men and violence. Nearly a quarter of men in the Asia Pacific region - that includes China, admitted to raping at least once, a woman who was not their partner. They said it was because 'they felt entitled' and 'for entetainment'. The highest prevalence was in Papua New Gunea at 62% and the lowest in Bangladesh at 9.5%.

It seems to be not Islam that is the problem, but the social norms in which men grow up. That is the normalisation of violence against women, the notion of 'manhood' and the use of violence to discipline children.

What kind of man does this? One of the kind that can watch a girl who has been raped being lashed as an adultress.
I am always being told I shouldn't tar all muslim men with the same brush, but if enough of them would stand up and be counted they could stop their womenfolk being treated so cruelly. Are they just too scared, or do they actually enjoy the power it gives them?

One thing that I think is causing caution in tackling FGM in Britain is what happens to the children if you prosecute the parents?

Do you imprison the parents who might other wise be caring parents who have been heavily pressured by relatives and feel that they may be shunned for not following family tradition. Such action as removing children from their families could cause a lot more emotional damage.

I am in no way wanting to go soft on this appalling practice but the Government has to think about how best to do this without causing more problems for the children concerned.

By all means go for those who carry out these practices particularly those in the medical profession who should know better.

I also understand this is a cultural practice and is not confined in any way to Islamic religious belief.

I am just hoping that the government will get their heads around doing this in the most effective way, which is probably to engage heavily in acceptable educational tactics in those communities where this practice is rife.
Child sponsorship charities such as Plan have put a lot of energy into educational projects to try to stop this practice in the associated countries.

Heartbreaking. And the whole issue of 'culture' carries so much baggage with it. For anyone who is interested it's worth reading Facing Mount Kenya by Jomo Kenyatta written in 1938. The eulogising forward is by Professor Malinovsky who extols the insights it gives into Kikuyu culture. It was required reading for every European going to live or work in East Africa for many years - and perhaps even now. And it contains fascinating insights into Kikuyu life. But - referred to eliptically, is a celebration of male and female 'circumcision'. I remember vividly challenging those who briefed us (this was in the 70s) and being told in no uncertain terms that it was not our place as former colonial oppressors to challenge African culture and practice.

Later, I worked with Aftrican sisters whose infirmary, which was principally designed as a leprosarium, cared for far too many girls from the outlying villages who had been 'cut'. They did their best but Sister Frances, who was both a doctor and Prioress and a Kikuyu, said that changing the cultural practices was impossibly hard. In fact, in Kenya, I understand the practice has pretty well died out, which is encouraging, but sadly it still flourishes, as we kow, elsewhere.

It is certainly the case that in this country we must do all that we can in every way possible to prevent this practice. But changing hearts and minds is hard. Both here and overseas. We need far more African women to qualify as health professionals and associated occupations to begin to effect change.

And as a footnote, when I left Africa, I was given a number of artefacts to remind me of my years there. Among them is a male and a female circumcision knife, so that, as Sister Frances said, you can explain back at home what some girls here have to endure.

going

Quote Bags "We bloody can judge! Raping children is wrong. Full stop."

Yep. Gassing them is wrong too. What can we do about it? They are never goping to listen to us. #despairisallthatsleft

I think it is murder too, iam.

bananas, good post.

Good post BAnanas

Shocking, this little girl must have been terrified, and screaming in pain. What kind of man would continue to sexually abuse a child he just married, other than simply because he wanted to, and he could. This is murder isn't it, or am I simplifying something?

Having read the FGM linked supplied by Bags, I find it truly shocking that a primary school teacher could have likened this horrible mutilation inflicted on a young girl to a rite of passage such as a Barmitzvah. Her behaviour displays a sycophantic belief that all cultures must be treated equally. I for one don't buy into that one. As far as I am concerned any faith/culture/religion that thinks it's OK to harm children is wrong! wrong! wrong! and should not be tolerated.

I think it's fair to say that most of these abhorrent practices are completely covert. Along with many of the abuses SOME adherents to the Muslim faith inflict on their young, mainly female, followers and yes I know that all has not been hunky dory with Christian denominations and we should put our own house in order as well. Nevertheless, SOME Africans who follow strange quasi faiths, that encompass something called "JuJu" whilst living in this country also do horrible things to their children in the name of exorcism. Vile beatings and I've also heard of Chili powder being rubbed into the eyes of very little children. These practices are positively stone age, it's as if science doesn't exist. How can anyone honestly believe having sex with a young child, or even a baby can rid them of some awful disease is beyond me.

I think it's deplorable that a blind eye can be turned in the name of political correctness. I believe in France they have girl children from places where FGM is widespread undergo an examination by a doctor, I can imagine that some would say that would be an infringement of human rights, but if it is for the greater good in eradicating this vile practice then I think it's preferable to the child being spirited away and having to undergo this procedure and endure a lifetime of pain and complications.

I've said before I think most religions are deeply patriarchal and are skewed to keep women in their place, but I think some are worse than others I'm afraid. I find it deeply insulting to suggest that women should be covered from head to toe because they might inflame men's passions, and men should also find it insulting to them because it implies they have no self control. I took my granddaughter to see a theatre production of the Gruffalo's Child a few months ago, this was aimed at children from roughly aged 1 to 6. A party of very young, possibly aged 5, Muslim schoolgirls filed in, all with their heads tightly bound in a headscarf, not only a sad and quite unnecessary in my opinion but completely incongruous in our society and sod multiculturism I'm with the French on that one. Why do little girls have to a) feel bad about having hair or b) that they could be temptresses if the hair isn't covered. Yes I can see the the counter argument that we live in a sexualised society and women are often made to feel that they have to be on display, and not in a good way, but does that mean women should walk around like a mobile tent with no peripheral vision in the worst case scenario.

France I believe have banned the headscarf in school along with other religious symbolism and veil. Arresting women for wearing it in public does make me feel they are taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut sometimes, but I do feel they are right to try and eradicate FGM in a more heavy handed way than we appear to be doing, turning a blind eye and tinkering around the edges with something as important as this is pathetic. You can't please all of the people all of the time so don't please those who are in the wrong!

Yes load of tut. Romantic twaddle about the past. All this marring off of children is about the power of men and their "honour" and property. Marry her off before she can possibly bring "shame" on the family.

There was a discussion about FGM on television some months ago with representatives of various EU countries. The Frenchwoman said that in France, girls have a gynaecological examination when they have a routine milestone check and parents know this will take place, she felt this was helpful in stopping the practice. Seems a good point to me. Why don't we do this?

Ah - the myth of 'Ancient Wisdom' - beloved of New Agers and con-men...

Here's how to tackle FGM.

I think the Beatles were more influenced by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the Transcendental Meditation movement to visit India rather than any serious interest in India itself.

I was always surprised when people like the Beatles went to India because they admired the wisdom they would find there.

I have a copy of an alarmingly truthful book called 'Mother India' written in 1927. It tells of the terrible things happening to women then in India..........I don't think that there have been many changes in some areas since then.

The CPS has said it is not in the public interest to prosecute two Asian doctors who offered to abort female foetuses.

And still some people tell us we must respect all cultures.

Here it is - last but one sentence.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415492/Dentist-Omar-Addow-struck-offering-perform-female-genital-mutilation-girls.html

I saw a report at the weekend - can't remember which paper now, possible DM online - that 2,000 girls had attended hospital in this country in the last 3 or 4 years, following female genital mutilation abroad. Something is terribly wrong when children continue to be subjected to such barbaric treatment.