Bedroom tax breaches human rights.

Is there anything in the UDHR about taking away something from people who thought that they had it permanently, not on loan?

So where would you propose putting the people you turfed out of their homes on the basis that they had one room too many? Are they not just going to join the ranks of the homeless?
And there may be any number of reasons why a couple need an extra bedroom - but we have been through all that ad nauseum. The point of this thread appears to be to rubbish the views of the UN envoy.

Does anyone have any statistics on how many people have moved as a result of this policy? We can discuss it over and over again but it would be good to know if anyone has actually moved out of accommodation which was bigger than they needed. Now that it has been around a while it would be good to know the facts rather than all the hype, which may or may not be true.

Elegran No, not as far as I can see.

Greatnan If your question was addressed to me perhaps you could indicate where I proposed that. I merely asked which article was contravened.

I'm interested in that too, Sel. I can't see that it's a human right to have a spare bedroom unless it's needed for medical reasons etc. Asking where the ousted tenants would go is not answering the question.

I think we have the right to 'rubbish' whoever we want to surely? Quite a lot of the threads rubbish someone or other. Just clarifying a point.

I do not know how many people have moved, but the National Housing Federation says it affects 660,000 homes, and nearly two thirds of them have someone with a disability.
The chief executive of the NHF says that 65% of Housing Associations report an increase in housing arrears. 9 out of 10 disabled people had to cut back on food to pay rent. Tens of thousands of households who are trying to move can't find anywhere to go, but are still being charged a penalty.
In Liverpool the Samaritans are training Housing Association staff to be able to identify suicide risks. That's scary.
By the way the penalty is only 14% or roughly £13 for a person with one spare room. If you are a single person living in a 3 bedroomed house in which you have raised your family, you lose 25% of your housing benefit.
I find Full Fact a useful website to find out statistics.

To get back to Sel's question (and in the absence of a reply from anyone who has more knowledge than I), there is this:

"Liberty wants to challenge the lawfulness of the proposals – on the grounds they are irrational and a violation of Articles 8 and/or 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights; the right to a private and family life and no discrimination." referring to the denial of a spare bedroom to parents who share custody of their children but whose home is not the children's main residence.

That's aside from disability groups who are making their own challenges, of course on the grounds of discrimination.

That's interesting Ana - I note they are using the European version rather than the UN. I can see the need of a spare bedroom in shared custody and disability.

Sel, I quoted article 25 on page two.
How is it okay to make someone move away from his or her family into a onebedroom flat? It must contravene that.

I'm probably confused, Sel, I'll leave you to it! I'd still be interested to learn exactly on what grounds the UN envoy is relying.

Sorry Jendurham I hadn't read the whole thread. In the case you mention, I agree it would hardly be desirable but I presume they would be moving within the same LA area? I still can't see that the right to live within a certain distance of one's family is enshrined within the UDHR.

Would you think it better if once a person reaches a certain income level, the right to social, subsidised housing should be removed? Someone mentioned Bob Crow I think, no doubt there are others who enjoy living in housing which is desperately needed by poor families. BC enjoys a salary of circa £140k

Red herring -we are not discussing a means test for council tax rents.

Have you any idea on what grounds the UN envoy is saying that the 'bedroom tax' breaches the UDHR Greatnan?

Try googling 'UN envoy and bedroom tax' and you will find plenty of reports.
I am off to have my dinner.

Means-testing is not unconnected though Greatnan as the overall problem is about supply and demand.

If the likes of Bob Crowe and Frank Dobson gave up their subsidised properties they could be used for genuinely low-income families with children.

Ask a civil question....

Movedalot, According to the NHF website a report from Merseyside said that of the 26500 households impacted by the bedroom tax, only 155 managed to downsize in April. The number of households who will be hit by the tax outnumbers thefamilies living in overcrowded accommodation by 4 to 1 in the North West.
During April more than 14000 Merseyside households fell into arrears with their rent. 6000 had never been in debt before.
These statistics scare me. This is only in the north west.

You got a perfectly civil answer. When I want information, I usually find it on google. I thought perhaps you had not considered that.
Dragging in council tax rents and incomes is just muddying the waters. Why not have a separate thread about that?

Sel, I do not agree with what Bob Crowe does either, but it does not justify what the government is doing to the poor and vunerable.
I have lived in council houses, but only when moving around the country as my husband was an architect and worked sometimes for councils.
My parents lived in the house I was born in until they were in their 70s.
We managed to persuade them that the house was too big, seven bedrooms, and they sold to a housing association in exchange for a one bedroomed flat. The house was turned into bedsits for teenagers leaving care. But this was their choice.
This government is forcing people to move away from their homes and families. People living in London are being made to move out of London to as far away as Yorkshire.
John Swinney talking about the bedroom tax on the parliament programme, channel 81.

Ana, I have spent a lot of time today writing down information about this from the Guardian website, from various other websites like the National Housing Federation, and a report from Liverpool.
You will find lots about it on the Guardian website, so look on that, please.

Sel, I think the wording is adequate for the health and wellbeing of himself and his family.
If you had lived round the corner from your family for all your life and then had to move a hundred miles away because you were living in what the government deemed was too big a house, it would not be good for your health and wellbeing.
Merseyside says that because of the shortage of smaller units of accommodation it would take 6 years to move all the people who had to.
Yet the government started charging people straight away. Councils were given less than a year to sort this out. Councils have never been allowed to spend the money they gained from selling council houses on building smaller units of accommodation.

Thank you for that information, Jendurham.

I think that the issue with Human Rights and the so called bedroom tax is that the people who are likely to be affected are already amongst the more vulnerable in the UK. I think if people have made their family home in public housing accommodation to then to be forced by law to have to move or pay a tax once the family has grown/moved on is unkind. It would be less so if smaller accommodation was available within the community of which they have been a part.

I am in full agreement with those that wish to see more public housing to accommodate those living in inadequate conditions. Whilst we are in a poor economic climate the UK is still a relatively wealthy country and it is shameful that we do not have sufficient good properties available for the poorest in our country.