Badgers to be gassed

Interesting link, Thatbags Dogs are not people, of course, and neither are chimps. Dogs are dogs and chimps are chimps and badgers are badgers, but they all share the right to be protected from cruelty. There are enough natural hazards for animals to face without adding to them.

It must cost the country a great deal to destroy animals, however it is done, and then compensate the farmers. Surely the money would be better spent implementing a really thorough programme of vaccination, starting in an area where the problem of bovine TB is worst and progressing across the whole country? It would save money in the long run, and could eventually eradicate it.

I have just watched a recording of an episode of "Pain, pus and poison" which included the campaign against smallpox. That scourge has been eradicated, thanks to teamwork acroos many countries.

That's a very interesting link Thatbags. It only confirms what many dog owners -sorry, dog guardians - have known forever. But it does raise some interesting questions about the way we treat all animals. Pigs for example are more intelligent than dogs but they suffer the most appalling treatment on farms and in the slaughterhouse. If, as this research suggests, animals are more like us than we care to believe then perhaps we should re-evaluate how we use and abuse them.

It's a common quote but still worth repeating: 'The question is not, can they reason? nor, can they talk? but, can they suffer?' (Jeremy Bentham)

Bags - I agree, cruelty is cruelty whatever live creature it is applied to. People who are cruel or neglectful of animals in their care, tend to treat the humans in their lives badly as well. I've had a series of rescue dogs, all of them had pretty awful life experiences before ending up in a shelter. All of them shared and enriched our lives.
The debate about the best way to eradicate bovine tb is important, thanks for getting us talking about it.

Here's something to annoy jingle and anyone else outraged: www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opinion/sunday/dogs-are-people-too.html. And if dogs, why not badgers too?

It was some years ago that I was reading a claim that we should regard chimps as human...

What do I think? I don't know about the above, but I do know that the idea of gassing badgers appalled me. Cruelty is cruelty whatever live creature it is applied to.

Yes, I am being provocative. Provoking thinking is good in my book, even when it's uncomfortable.

PS they weren't 100% sure shooting would be humane and effective (it wasn't) but they still went ahead.

Not a deliberate lie, jings. Gassing animals is an emotive idea and I was very shocked. I did not realise the idea was only being put forward. That's bad enough anyway.

I also heard the comment about Badgers moving the goal posts, and it made me smile.

Nightowl, thanks for the open democracy link. I'm opposed to gassing badgers, and like others wonder about immunisation as a way forward.

Despite my sympathy for the badgers, I do I feel for the remaining dairy farmers, and wonder quite where we're going as a society as we seem to be moving to factory farming for cows now. In the 3 villages that are now basically one spreading commuter area where I live, we now have 1 dairy farm, where 30 years ago we had 25.

The title of this thread is an emotive lie. Badgers will not be gassed until the government can be 100% sure that the method can be made completely safe, humane and effective.

A vaccine for cattle where vaccinated cows can be distinguished from infected cows, is some years away.

nightowl Thank you for the open democracy link. It was very informative.

Your link of 23.54 nightowl

I think if the vaccine was effective then the easy solution would be to vaccinate the cows. Does anyone know the details on this?

The BCG vaccination for humans does not give strong immunity. TB a very difficult organism.
I thought it was ludicrous of the Secretary of State to use the term "badgers have moved the goalposts". I suppose he was dashing around yelling at this team to come up with a soundbite for his announcement.

nightowl Your link is one of the best articles I've read about this issue.
I was particularly interested in the vaccination route being explored in Wales. That seems to me to be a sensible way forward.
In fact, vaccination for both badgers and cows is the way to go I think.
It's costs though.

Is gassing of badgers cheaper? Seems ghastly to me.

I know vaccination of cows is v. expensive, and I believe it's the farmers who have to pay. (May be wrong ), but if that is the case, then there are many dairy farmers who would find the costs prohibitive. However, the vaccination of badgers will be financed by the government, I suppose.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/08/badger-cull-extension-too-few-killed

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/08/badger-cull-extension-too-few-killed

Free shooting of badgers was the first option chosen by the government (because it's cheaper) but as this article shows, they had to start trapping and then shooting in order to increase the numbers killed. The article also describes one badger leaving a bloody trail back to its set and the body not being recovered. How many more? It's very difficult to kill a free roaming badger with one shot I believe.

The proposal to vaccinate the badgers was based on the principle that a badger's lifespan is about 5 years, therefore over a 5 year period vaccination would effectively wipe out TB in the population. The proposal re shooting the badgers is aiming to reduce the level of TB over a four year period so neither policy is seen as a quick fix. As Anniebach says, we will see in 5 years time whether England or Wales made the correct choice. Lucky welsh badgers in the meantime.

There was a cull by gassing several years ago in Gloucestershire, the result was that there was no TB in cattle for 10 years but once the badgers recolonised the TB in cattle returned. It has been shown that as a badger sett has many entrances and exits it is often not possible to block them all, this has resulted in some badgers surviving the gas and it appears that it is the young badgers that survive rather than the older ones. During the gassing in Gloucestershire the gas used was cyanide and it was stopped because it was shown that some badgers did not die immediately, some surviving for half a minute. The gas they are now proposing to use is not cyanide but more humane.

During the present cull by shooting the badgers were not trapped and then shot but were shot whilst roaming free, which is why expert marksmen were used.

Vaccination may appear to be the best solution, however, if a badger already has TB the vaccine has no effect.

Of course the farmer doesn't get paid twice.

Those of you who might be worrying about your weekend joint are welcome to buy imported meat. Not so long ago some people were unknowingly eating horsemeat

Good link, Nightowl, one of my favourite websites.
What I hadn't realised is that a cow killed for having bovine TB still went into the food chain.
Think of that, all you meat eaters, the next time you buy your joint of beef for the weekend.
Does that mean the farmer gets paid twice?

We campaigned against the culling in Wales, it will be interesting to learn who made the right decision, England and shooting, Wales and vaccination . There is no doubt shooting the badgers is cruel, not all are killed but die of wounds, their young are left and the badgers who escape spread further afield

Suppose the fox is being spared whilst all these marksmen! Hunt the badger

I think shooting is humane if it is accurate. I was shocked to hear that gassing was being considered. Further reading made me aware that it is carbon monoxide that is proposed as the gas to be used and that apparently this will be painless. I still don't like the idea but I think that is because I've never been convinced of the necessity to kill badgers since there is a bovine vaccine for bovine TB which can be given to bovines. It does look, on the face of it, to be about cost rather than wild animal lives.

Those who wish to think I have no sense of humanity are free to do so. Other than an admittedly careless thought/sentence in the OP of this thread, which I now regret, I'd like to suggest there is little evidence for that belief.

I think badgers are being used as scapegoats. What is happening to the cubs whose parents are shot! Not exactly humane way of dealing with the situation. Once again it's an action that's knee jerk and not been properly thought through. It seems that if it moves and isn't bringing in money then it should be killed. It's humans who are destroying their habitat and forcing the bunching of animals together and poor conditions will bring disease - like it does with humans. Experts seem to be not so 'expert' after all - why am I not surprised!

www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/steve-jones/hypocrisy-of-badger-cull

An interesting article about the plight of the dairy and beef industries and how cattle are paying the price. This author argues that badgers are scapegoats for health problems caused by poor animal husbandry. I think he is right and we do have to ask ourselves what kind of farming industry we want and what we are willing to accept.

Ah OK thanks for headsup. thought they might be. Just the James Herriot thing coming through. After reading him I am an expert xxxx

Flower cows are tested regularly anyway.

A really good friend of ours is a farmer, he loves his animals but they are business to him.