US execution

Some of those could apply here, too, ffinnochio.

I like that ffinocchio. Thanks.

Seven ways to fix the Criminal Justice System in America - by Bo Lozoff

For fuller info go to: www.ru.org/society/seven-ways-to-fix-the-criminal-justice-system.html

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Learn to recognise the influence of socially sanctioned hatred.

Make drugs a public health problem instead of a criminal justice problem.

Separate violent and non-violent offenders right from the start

Regain compassion and respect for those who have wronged us

Allow for transformation, not merely rehabilitation.

Join and support the restorative justice movement

Take the issue of crime and punishment seriously.

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These points may or may not be agreed with, but it's certainly a promising approach.

I should add that we have learnt an awful lot from America about the assessment and treatment of criminal behaviour. The most advanced and enlightened psychiatrists, psychologists, prison governors and academics, including the FBI, have helped to educate UK lawyers, prisons and probation in their effective methods. Without the support of American specialist lawyers, our treatment of rape cases would still be trailing behind. They, in turn have learned from us, but we do benefit from their vast resources.

I have visited half of the American states and love going there. There are certain states that dole out inhumane treatment to some prisoners, such as with the death row system. They are not representative of the States as a whole. I could easily live in most places on the Eastern Seaboard and California, but would struggle with some parts of mid-America and the Southern States where gun use and inhumane attitudes have been more overt. Having met a few people with very bigoted views, though, it was obvious that they were not representative of all Americans. It's the same here in the UK - we can't judge the whole by looking at a few objectionable people and practices. It's such a massive, diverse country - truly wonderful in its size and beauty.

Thanks anno and indeed their penal system does stink.

Put my mini-rant down to early morning kneed-jerk!

I think, ffinochio that we all agree with anno but maybe - millions of Americans lovely and have some qualities we envy and appreciate. But many aspects of their democracy are problematic and not, as some of them would have us think, the best system in the world.
I find the lack of a sub judice rule weird as well - so witnesses and victims are interviewed on TV before and during the trial
Italians too have a weird justice system. Locking away scientists for not predicting an earthquake and re-trying Amanda Knox after she has been found not guilty.

Sorry ffinochio if you think this is America-bashing: I know that many - even most - Americans are good, kind, friendly and well balanced people but there is no getting away from the fact that their penal system stinks.

I'm please to see that not all Americans, then, are tarred with the same brush, although I did think the tone of this thread was veering towards a collective view of America, rather than the specific issue of their Penal System.

I don't anyone is America bashing but bashing their method of execution also the length of time the prisoner is kept before the deed is done. I also lived in the US for several years and have an American DIL and GD but feel I can still criticise the US as they can the UK.
During the Reign of Terror it was noted that after the person's head was lopped off their eyes still moved for a few seconds. After some experimentation it was decided it was a reaction of the nervous system and the deceased was well and truly dead - chickens do flap their wings for some time after having their heads cut off for the same reason.

I don't think anyone is having a go at all Americans. The discussion has focussed on the death penalty, criminal justice system and the social inequality, lack of health care for the poor etc

Ffinnochio I am in the same position as you. My American DiL's parents are truly kind and generous people

More America bashing, I see. I get pretty fed up of the negative blanket statements made. I agree there is much to improve , and I've met many American's who would wish to do so.

My grandchildren are American. My daughter-in-law is American. My sister- in-law is American, some nephews and nieces are American. So forgive me for being somewhat pissed-off.

I've met many, many good and caring people there.

I wonder how representative the comments on this thread are of the general UK view of the USA. I haven't been to America. American friends who moved to the UK 30 plus years ago visit family, but have no desire to return to the States. I share FlicketyB's view that we make the mistake of seeing America as sharing similar values, because we share a language.

Flicketyb I agree totally!
I have never had many illusions about the USA being a particularly civilised country.
I remember the civil rights struggles of the 1960s and just what injustice was still being done to black Americans, particularly in the southern states before this time.
As others have said, the long drawn out Death Row system is disgusting, and almost worse that a rapid execution, in the sense it promotes prolonged mental stress. The whole of their penal system seems exceptionally harsh and violent. It is not surprising to me that there is so much violence in that country.

The dreadful social inequalities are another thing, the inability of the poor to get health care etc etc.

The myth about anyone being able to be president of the USA is such a lie, given how much getting into American politics is influenced by having lots of money.

I am sorry America but you need to get your society to be more compassionate towards those who are not able to share your countries wealth. The impression of a country divided very much on the basis of the haves and the have nots is what comes across very much to me when compared say to many parts of Western Europe.

Well, I am neither a socialist or an atheist and I completely agree with you Joan. Although people do not always have a choice over whether they visit the US on business.

I would never go to America even for a holiday - the place is upsetting on so many levels; the justice system, the gun ownership insanity, the religiosity including the born-agains, the widespread ignorance about the rest of the world, the right wing attitudes - and the appalling death penalty.

Mind you , I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want a dyed-in-the-wool socialist atheist like me to come to their shores either!!

I read somewhere that a scientist who was guillotined during the French Revolution told a friend he would try to keep blinking during and after the capitation process. His eyes kept blinking for 14 seconds after the blade fell.

I find the vindictiveness of so much US justice repulsive, they enjoy knowing that they lock people up for unfeasibly long times with no chance of release even when the crime was committed as a juvenile or in circumstances that would be treated with compassion in the UK. And the conditions in American prisons................

Death row prisoners do not always get represented by students. A friend of mine worked for the state of california. His job as a lawyer was to represent prisoners on death row. It was slow painstaking work, involving many tactical delays. He chose this career for ethical reasons (he would obviously have earned a shed load more in private practice. Still very expensive though - his case load would be 3 or 4 and they would go on for years. But every state does things differently.

I agree about the inhumanity of death penalties, but I don't think life imprisonment is humane either. And nor are the crimes that carry life or death sentences. From start to finish the whole deal with gross and violent crime and dealing with the perpetrators is the inhumanity of it.

Yes, that is a provoking thought. I've written it down because it is a thought I've had. I don't think there is a satisfactory way of dealing with excessively violent crime. However, I'd be interested to hear what others think.

The mistake we make is assuming that the USA is civilised country with people who share our culture and cultural values.

When DH was at work his job took him at times to some of the more 'redneck' areas of the US and he said he frequently felt more alien and unable to connect with people than when he went to more remote areas of Africa

I think too many people are quick to jump on the "Hanging is too good for them" bandwaggon but get squeamish at the detail. How I would feel if anyone I love had been the victim? Like Tegan I simply cannot imagine and pray that none of us here (or anywhere) is ever in that position.

Did anyone read the book/see the film The Executioners Song about Gary Gilmore who insisted on death by firing squad in the [I think] 1970's? Very powerful film that left quite an impression on me when I first saw it. Not sure how I'd feel seeing someone suffer so much even after they'd killed someone I loved; would I feel better/have closure? Really don't know.

Elegran No, it was a totally different Dr Guillotin who was decapitated by guillotine – an unhappy coincidence. Dr Joseph-Ignace Guillotin was arrested at one point during the Reign of Terror but released after the death of Robespierre and died, so far as I recollect, from natural causes some time in the early nineteenth century.

Wasn't Monsieur Guillotine executed with his own invention?