Oh the irony

The 'cure' is in our own hands and encompassed in our own attitudes.

So you believe we should do the very thing we're criticising them for, bags?

Quite a good conversation about the subject of how women and girls are pressurised to conform to a certain stereotype on 'I'm a Celebrity, Get me out of Here' tonight. (Yes, I know, but there was nothing else on...)

Rebecca Adlington has obviously been badly affected by online criticism of her looks.

What about educating them out of it? Campaigning for better conduct? Collective support for women to get rid of this rubbish? Some success happening with the move to get rid of page 3.

I can't see what all the fuss is about. The Duchess of Cambridge performs an official duty, she wears a short skirt which blows up in the wind and the press called it a 'Marilyn Moment'.

Did anyone die?

I think a bit of shouting back will help educate them out of it, when. But only a little. I don't think humanity will ever be educated out of being hyper-critical of people's appearance, especially famous people's appearance, "public" people's appearance. Cynical, perhaps, but probably true.

What I'm really saying is that women can do more than they do. They could start by not buying publications that are hyper-critical of women. Until they do that they might as well talk to the wall with all their complaints.

Trouble is, it starts at a young age and I guess it becomes a kind of addiction. Talking theough my hat here, but why the hell else would women give in to such unrealistic nonsense as is churned out by the ton every day? Why haven't we, as a gender, more self-respect? It can't all have been bullied out of us, can it?

Yes, I have that feeling too, merlot.

Yes, I'm always happy to shout back, bags but not to do to them what they do to women eg making sexist remarks about women, or commenting on their appearance and not the purpose of them being there.

groups which are the "underdogs" in any culture tend to suffer from low self esteem bags unless they are members of a very strong supportive sub-culture themselves perhaps. They also tend to internalise some of the values and attitudes of the dominant culture. "women should make an effort to look pleasing to men" - well who dreamed that up I wonder?
So you start with a bunch of women with low self esteem and then you feed them toxic stuff that maybe temporarily makes them feel a bit better about themselves "Doesn't kate moss look rough in that shot of her getting the milk in" . But at the same time you bombard them with images of unattainable glamour - thus making them feel bad about themselves all over again ..... so buy another mag to see a shot of the unattainably glamorous one looking a bit overweight in her bikini.... and so it goes on

There's exactly the same pressure for men nowadays to look good. Actually everyone, young or old. The booming aesthetic surgery industry and its non surgical bedfellow, male cosmetics, perfect sets of teeth - they are not confined to women any more. Nothing to do with feminism, more to do with the culture today where appearance is all. Obviously I blame the Daily Mail or possibly Margaret Thatcher.

...and look what Liz Hurley has done to poor Shane Warne

Is the pressure on men anything like so deep-rooted and powerful as the pressure on women, especially young women, but also the middle-aged who are "expected" to botox themselves silly and spend a fortune on potions and lotions? However, I should be grateful because at my age (63), all the media want me to do is stop getting my pension and die because I am such a useless drain on resources.

Women are just as, if not more, critical of other women as the rag press are.

Why is that? Is that all down to indoctrination? Or is it because they themselves are bullies deep down? Or some other reason?

I don't think the pressure is absent anything like as much. Maybe in certain circles sel but how much, really, on average, do ordinary young men spend on beauty treatments...?
Oh I don't know absent, there are factions in the media that would like you to "travel" for instance or buy a Phillipe Patek watch, not for yourself of course, but to pass on as an heirloom to your descendants (well someone must fall for those cheesy PP ads or they wouldn't run them endlessly on the back cover of the Economist) And surely it is not the young who can afford Louis Vuitton bags, is it?
Did you read my post about low self esteem bags - does it make any sense?
Most women are brought up from an early age to think appearance is terribly important. Possibly the most important thing.

Yes, I read it, and it makes sense, jess, but it doesn't explain women's bitchiness about each other. Thus my questions.

Perhaps the Duchess of Cambridge knew exactly what she was doing wearing a shortish skirt on a breezy day. Perhaps she's playing the media like a fish on a line. After all, would the charity have got such publicity if it had been an aging MP in a suit?

And if most women are brought up from an early age to think appearance is terribly important, whose fault is that? It is society, yes. But it is mothers (and fathers) too, mothers (and fathers) full of silly ideas and stupid prejudices. Thus the need for organisations like PinkStinks to try to redress the balance. I don't think the media is to blame for it all. The media reflects society rather than leading it.

Education against silly ideas starts at home, not at school.

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised, nfk. I rather like that cheeky attitude, actually and hope it's the case rather than that she's just another air head.

Bet HM the Q has never had a Marilyn moment. Now why would that be?

She's too little!

Which is not to say appearance isn't important, jess. It is, but within limits. The limits seem have gone missing in today's mad city life. This is why female TV presenters, for instance (thinking weather forecast at the mo) wear what I would call evening dress for their presentations instead of "working clothes". It's all OTT in the silliest way.

And the men stay boring in suits. Sigh.

nfk

I actually like fancy men in suits bags my DH seems to be permanently in work clothes and I would love it if he would wear a suit now and again (with shirt and tie of course).

I think mrbags looks good in a suit too, but I wouldn't want him to "be a suit" all the time. We'd actually forgotten that he had a suit because he wears one so seldom. Still fits too, which was even more of a surprise

I'd like to see MPs (for instance) wearing smart casual rather than the ubiquitous suit, though I can understand their finding it easier just to stick with "being suits". It doesn't require any thought about what to wear, after all.

I think what women and men wear for formal or work occasions (like sitting in The House) is another great and unnecessary gender divider.