Scottish independence

Let's face it though it's not going to happen. There will be votes and talks and talks about votes and votes on talks and squillions spent on it and then another government or Scottish parliament will start all over again. Of course Cameron will let them play at it, take the Scottish MPs out of Westminster and the Tories could be in for life. Labour can't afford to lose its Scottish MPs. Ever counted how many Conservatives represent Scottish constituencies in Westminster??They could hold their meetings in a phone box if such things still existed!

Oops I see Brendawymms got there first- teach me to read through before sounding off

Tegan follow the path that the Scots have used- start a campaign, build up support, demand a referendum.

I see I missed a bit in my reply to you (and Bags) below. It should read if you substitute the phrase 'the right to self-determination' (which is after all what the referendum is about) for the loaded word 'Nationalism' does that change your stance on the issue?

And Thistledoo where do you get the idea that the Yes campaign is being funded with 'your' or 'our' money? The Yes Campaign is an entirely separate entity from both the Scottish Government and the SNP, both constitutionally and financially. It has its own advisory board chaired by Dennis Canavan an ex-labour MP and MSP. I have spent the last 2 years raising funds separately for the SNP and the Yes campaign and can assure you that the funds raised and individual personal donations go to entirely different addresses and bank accounts. The electoral commission would be down on them like a ton of bricks if this were not entirely above board, transparent and meticulously accounted for. However I understand that 'Better together' do not require to raise funds here for their 'No' campaign because it has been handsomely funded by the usual Tory donors, in England and offshore.

While I am being sarky (and honestly this is not aimed at you 'Thistledoo but rather at the honourable gentleman himself) former PM Gordon Brown, still the sitting MP for Kirkcaldy, who was 'too busy' to take on a leading role in the No campaign but has managed to make a few speeches on their behalf, was also too busy to travel down to Westminster to vote on the Labour bill to repeal the 'Bedroom Tax' - one of 8 Scottish Labour MPs and many more from elsewhere in the UK who failed to appear with the result that the bill was narrowly defeated. Too busy to represent the views of their supporters? You will all be aware, I am sure, that Gordon Brown has made exactly 6 appearances in the House of Commons since he ceased to be PM. Presumably he can't see the point when he is no longer 'in charge'. Still drawing his full salary tho'.

OK, rant over. I hope I will have calmed down to reasonableness by morning.

Tegan why be chilled to the bone? An independent Scotland is not going to wage war on England or send raiding parties across the borders This idea that the Scots hate the English is no more correct than saying the English hate the Scots, or the Welsh, or the Irish.
In fact an independent Scotland would possibly improve relationships between the two 'nations' inasmuch as there would exist an element of equality that has been missing in that relationship.

Wishing you all a Happy St. Andrews Day U < that's my attempt at a whisky glass instead of a

Happy St. Andrew's Day all. U Slainte. And to all of you meeting up in Edinburgh, hope you have a good get together.

Thank you for your comments Granny23. Happy St Andrew's Day.
You are extremely knowledgeable on the subject of the independence referendum, most people are not so well informed.
For what its worth, I will now keep now council to myself.

Happy St Andrew's day to all my compatriots and fellow St Andreans. or a wee dram.

I am not "stranded" in Scotland, my "heart" is not in England, I was born In England I didn't have much say in that. I choose, so far, to live in Scotland. I am not tribal, my loyalties are to my local community and what is best for it, where ever I happen to live

Presumably in honour of St Andrew's day, one of the Kindle Daily Deals is Neil Oliver's History of Scotland which I already have. It's not heavy reading but is a good resumé of the sometimes mythologised history of our country. Bruce and the spider, anyone?

How dare you Anno ..Bruce and the spider a myth? I was taught it as an historical fact

I am not "stranded" in Scotland either, Newist, though I was born in the south of England, where all my ancestors lived as far back as I can trace (1600 or so) My aunts, uncles, cousins, and cousins' families still live in the south - those of them who still survive. I have just heard that a 94 year-old aunt has died. It is a long way to a family wedding or funeral, but I am in contact with many of my numerous cousins.

But I have been here since I was 16, when my parents were moved up here, like it or not, with my father's job. When we lived in Fife I went to school there and made friends, and was never treated with the hatred that mythology says the Scots feel for the English. My further education was in Edinburgh, and here I made more friends, and met my husband, and was assimilated into his family.

My children are Scottish, but all three have met English partners,and two of them are settled with those partners here, but keep close ties with their English families. The third lives in the south, is close to her husband's family, but keeps her ties with us up here.

There is not an iron curtain across the border. Families have links in both directions (and further afield) Businesses and individuals come and go freely and I am sure will continue to do so whatever the outcome of the referendum.

How does Neil Oliver know the story is made up? Did he read it in the 14th Century edition of the Daily Myth?

There do seem to be an awful lot of caves where the spider story is said to have happened, G23 Not all the stories can be true, unless he went round with a plastic one and positioned it carefully so as to get a photo-opportunity.

You'll need to read the book, Granny23.

At last I have an answer to the interminable questions as to what I want for Christmas. Hooray

Granny23 - economically vulnerable. Particularly with the rise of India , China etc.
It is hard for small countries to maintain their standing in today's interconnected global economy.
NZ not a good example. Standard of living very low compared to here. Hence 1/5 of passport holders are working abroad.
Are all the little countries that used to be Yugoslavia better off being separate if you take away all the bad feeling about religion etc?
Was the small size of Eire a contributing factor in its recent crashing and burning? - I think it was. My close observation (my sister lives there) is that there was a lot of corruption, favours and woeful unprofessionalism in public life. e.g. "You only get a hospital when your own TD (MP) gets to be minister of health" as someone said.
It is not always the case that regions that being the underdog is behind nationalism. Basque region is the most affluent region in Spain.
Any other ideas on why breaking countries up into smaller ones is beneficial?

Oh I don't know about size being important...Monaco and the Vatican City seem to do well enough.

Wonder which way Scotland should go aka - gambling den or religious centre?

Aye, but both money spinners Elegran. With all that oil perhaps the Dubai of the North.

I will not wear a burka!!

Not even in your clan tartan?

aka All the Scots need to do now is invent a world religion and rake in the proceeds for 2000 years and all will be well.
Interesting stuff in the news this week about Spain's reaction to Salmond's blithe assumption that he can sail without cost or delay into EU membership, retaining all the UK's conditions.
In Spain not only the Basque region would like to be independent. There are more than a few stirrings in Catalonia as well (the second most affluent area I think). I remember while driving around Spain a few years ago, every time you entered a new region there was graffiti demanding its independence. Some of them have their own languages (Catalonia, Galicia to name 2)
Anyway, no surprise with this background that Spain have made it clear that they would dig in their heels unrelentingly to Scotland joining the EU. There are other countries that might well agree, for similar reasons, such as Belgium. So it seems likely that Scotland will have to apply to join and then will be engaged in a protracted, but ultimately unsuccessful, negotiation that is going to soak up yet more time and energy and distract the Scottish government from running Scottish affairs.
Also a condition of joining might well be joining the euro. If the EU did want to let them in, and Scotland is going to be this newly affluent nation, why would they not demand they join and strengthen the euro?
It does seem to me that Salmond's strongest case is the emotional one but that the logical arguments he is putting forward are based on a long string of "best case scenarios" in terms of economics.
Does anyone other than him think is he really going to come out of all these negotiations (with London and Brussels) with everything (or anything) he hopes for. Of course he isn't . Why would he? What power and leverage would he have in these negotiations against the UK government, the bank of England and many, many other powerful institutions. Why would they want to be generous and helpful to him?
And who is going to run Scotland's affairs while all these years of parallel and protracted negotiations take place?

My forebears are Scottish and Irish from about a hundred years or so, so I really consider myself a typical British mixture. No Welsh though. Anyway if Scotland wants to be independent let Scotland be independent it's their right. Same for Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Good Luck to them and I really mean that.
One question though that was recently discussed by a group of us. What happens to the Union Jack? Will the blue be removed? It's such an iconic flag and recognised all over the world. No one seems to know the answer.

What guarantee would Alex Salmond have that the Nats would have power in an independent Scotland? Independence would take take away their raison d'etre. Although there would be a system of proportional representation, it's possible that Labour would take control, and there could even be a resurgence (if there ever was a 'surgence') of the Conservatives. Many people who have voted for the SNP because they supported independence would go back to voting on their old party lines.