Are you ready to welcome the apparent flood of bulgarians and romanians....

Jess I don't know if you ever watched Hebburn but the caterwauling from the Mam (Gina McKee) when son Jack and his wife Sarah moved to Zurich in pursuit of her career was a sight to behold.
As was the rejoicing when they decided a month later when they were coming home because they didn't like being away from the family
A caricature certainly but it had grains of truth.

Immigrants from elsewhere than the UK also have very strong family ties- and also find it very difficult to be away from home (especially when they are treated like dirt sometimes- by people far less well educated than they are). But there will be no social benefits for them if they don't force themselves to go forth- nobody will look after them.

I get the impression there are quite a few well-educated people treating migrants and immigrants like dirt, too, Granjura

"Employers are to blame for importing so many of the unskilled instead of hiring at home" not a quote from the Daily Mail, but Polly Toynbee in last week's Guardian.

Why is it indeed that Eastern Europeans clearly have so much get and go? Here is my conclusion. They have lived under harsh regimes and possibly for them the only way is up. Not for them the toxic trio of poor education, a liberal benefit system and ever growing malignant trashy celebrity culture that seems to have left some trapped in a downward spiral of no job, no hope but paradoxically a weird sense of entitlement that they should be receiving something for nothing. I don't know, but I can imagine that the average Romanian, Bulgarian, Pole or Czech cannot go straight from school to an income supplied by the state without having to do something for it. When did it become OK for us to say that our younger generation, assuming they are fit and healthy, shouldn't have to get up early in the morning to pick fruit and veg. Admittedly this will be seasonal and not some long term career, but seemingly it's OK to import labour from abroad to do these jobs and according to the Home Office, then expect them to live in poor quality, overcrowded conditions with inflated rents. In worst case scenarios unscrupulous gang masters will be keeping them as slaves where they receive very little recompense for their efforts anyway.

So it seems we are to go forward with this concept that our young, who are continually being told they are worse than useless, and lets face it that can't exactly be morale boosting if you desperately want to work but are perpetually passed over in favour of a foreign work force who are deemed to be your superiors in their skills and worth ethic.

In my post that was deleted, I mentioned a black friend of mine who works mentoring black youngsters in South London. These young people simply don't have enough English to conduct an interview, they are our own home grown kids who converse in street slang, in spite of being in our education system for 12 years or so. Years in schools that complacently overlooked their mode of speech and presumably this would have been one of the reasons why Dianne Abbott chose to put her own son in an elitist private London school. David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham has commented on the fact that schools do black pupils no favours in letting them use slang to express themselves and it does not prepare them for a life in the workplace. Clearly this will become more of a problem when a foreign workforce can speak better English than the English and it can only reflect badly on our education system. I am not trying to imply that poor language skills are common only to that ethnicity, Tristan Hunt Shadow Education Secretary has also stated that white working class boys chances will have negatively been affected by the mass immigration from Eastern Europe. However, I think we are all ware that black teens are also more likely to be drawn into gang culture and lack of work and opportunities aren't therefore going to help them extricate themselves from that way of life. Some of these kids will no doubt be the descendants of the West Indians invited to come to Britain to work on our railways. Surely we have a greater duty to provide them with some sort of future than the unskilled migrant from Eastern Europe.

Today in the Observer there is an article about a landlord in Kent who has some 1,000 private rental properties. Quite aside as to why anyone should be allowed to own this number of lets, it seems he plans to give notice to tenants who are in receipt of housing benefits, particularly single mothers, in favour of Eastern Europeans. A precedent that would seem quite alarming if others follow suit. Where exactly are they supposed to go when we have such a dire shortage of housing God only knows. It does however bring up the question if we have so many single mothers in receipt of benefits in the UK shouldn't we being doing something to turn that situation around along with our numerous other social problems before we allow more unskilled migrants into our country, such as the Roma and yes I do know they are completely distinct group from their fellow Romanian and Bulgarians. However, the blame for their social pariah status could be laid fairly and squarely at the mono culture of Eastern European countries from which they emanate. They have been in that part of Europe for anything up to a 1000 years so if they haven't been assimilated then it says a lot about the attitudes of those countries to their fellow citizens who they deem to be unlike themselves. It's strange how political parties in Eastern Europe who espouse political views akin to Hitler can get away with it, but we are continually being lectured to by two faced Eurocrats that we could become the nasty man of Europe should we impose restrictions on our benefits. Although the UK is not a utopia, I think we have a far better track record than the average Eastern European given the number of immigrants we have received and assimilated into our country over the past 2,000 years, although not quite the tidal wave we have experienced over the past 6 or 7 years.

As for the fatuous argument that those of us who don't favour wholesale immigration my stage some impromptu hissy fit if we are dealt with by a Romanian or Bulgarian doctor, or indeed any other of their fellow countryman in another walk of life, I don't care who I am dealt with, it's not personal. It's about the finite amount of jobs and the assumption that our young are not able enough to do them, if not, why not? and what's being done about it? It can't be sustainable to have so many young inactive and consigned to life's heap without some sort of dissent setting in the long run.

JessM, my ancestors were amongst that hardy group that came north at the time of the industrial revolution. My paternal gran was put into service at age 11, hated it, and walked from Coventry to the north west with her older sister, aged 13. They were put up by a distant relative who had already got work in the local mills. He seems to have been a grumpy, unfriendly man, but he did put a roof over their heads whilst they got work in the local cotton mills.

I agree with what JessM says about the closure of the regional development offices, and the misplaced (in my mind) belief that HS2 is the answer to all our difficulties. Our northern towns are decimated, the working class pride and culture has gradually eroded. We do need to regenerate the north, and which ever political party put forward to constructive plan to do this, would get my vote. (well, unless it was Ukip, I'd better stop there).

Jess, I genuinely don't know any parents in my friendship/family group who'd rather have their children hanging on at home, than moving away to find work. So many of our children's friends are in London, trying to forge careers that aren't as readily available/well paid/such good prospects, locally. The engineering grads amongst them all seem to be in Australia, doing very well, having been unable to get work here. I could go on about the number of young people I know who travel long distances to work, in order to be in employment of any kind.

I do not believe it's as simple as immigration is all bad, all our kids are lazy and feckless and that's why the Eastern Europeans take the jobs in the service industry etc etc. I suppose we're struggling now, in just the same way that my ancestors did when the world was changing so quickly, under their feet. What's really important is open, honest debates where we can express different points of view, without resorting to chucking bricks (verbally) at each other. Which, in this thread, my own feeling is that generally, that's what's happening.

Interesting post.

I agree the 'Romanian Doctor' argument is fatuous. Annoyingly so.

BAnanas we must have been typing at the same time. I don't know if the evidence supports the fact that more black youths are likely to be drawn into the gang culture, than white youth, which is your conclusion. Some one with better knowledge will no doubt tell me.

Working in Manchester, I found the teenage lads who were likely to be drawn into the gang culture came from black, white and mixed ethnicity. Their common link was poverty of aspiration, and being surrounded by gangs so it was difficult to avoid being drawn in, in some way. They also tended to speak in street patoi, which I agree is very off putting, and it seems to me to be used to keep people they want to avoid (social workers, probation, police, teachers) at a distance and to emphasise their 'difference'.

I have just been listening to a discussion about the film, 12 years a Slave, which raised my consciousness once more, about the impact of slavery on all of us. I mentioned my family history of grandparents who walked across England for work during the industrial revolution. My colleague and friends who came here from Jamaica would be right in claiming his ancestors were even more harshly treated during that period than mine were.

It's impossible to live and work in the north west without being aware of the increasing numbers of the Roma community in our midst. Your criticism of their countries of origin for not assimilating them is fair on some levels, as it seems that Roma people, like gays, lesbians, blacks, in fact anyone seen as different, is more likely to be the subject of open bigotry than would be the case in the UK. In the UK our traveling communities, be they New Age, Irish or Roma are not universally liked or welcomed.

I remain convinced, we have to find a way of discussing these issues without becoming polarised.

As said before, the words 'Roma' and 'Romanians' are very similar, and here it ends. They are of course all humans, but the 'Romanians' discriminate hugely against the 'Romas' (gipsies). Romanians on the whole are very wello educated and trained- sadly Romas are not.

At a spa I used to visit, we had a young Romanian waiter. He always tried to chat- and I got to know him well. Turned out he was a Junior doctor, but as he could not afford a language school- he had accepted a job as a waiter. He missed his family dreadfully, including his wife and 2 children- and felt so isolated and poorly considered- but he said it was hte only way he could secure a better future for himself and his family. We also hosted several Bulgarian Post Doc scientists- including 2 women who left small children back home with family- for the same reasons. What makes you think that their family is not just as close as that of people from Northern UK- and that the wrench was not just as awful- on top of being treated so badly by so many in the UK. And despite being hugely intelligent and educated.

BAnanas well said. I am sick of hearing anecdotes about the past. What matters is the here and now.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2534058/I-stop-child-benefit-exported-Poland-rest-EU-Cameron-vows-sets-powers-wants-claw-Brussels.html

Surely people do not think this is ok, with services here being cut.

Iam64 I take your point and also from what I have read, I believe that gang culture in Manchester encompasses a racial mix. Down here in London gang culture tends to be more prevalent in black communities which would include the older established West Indian community and the more recently arrived Africans. A disproportionate number of their young men are lost to knife crime year on year. A woeful lack of attention from all political parties let these problems prevail and more money needs to be spent on issues like this before we allow too many other disadvantaged people such as the Roma with all the problems that they may bring to the UK. They are citizens of Eastern Europe and perhaps the European Court of Human Rights could try and make their respective countries who regard them as a sub species treat them in a more humane way. Or is their finger wagging reserved just for us

Agreed- but we must also realise that not all immigrants are the same and that many do have an improtant role to play in our economy- and in the long-term can be a real positive. But I think we must also address the reasons why so many of our youngsters fail hugely- and why so many are not prepared to get out of bed and work for a living- unless it is a highly paid job for which they are not qulaified- rather than collect benefits (I said some- I am fully aware that it is not all by a long chalk).

There are lots of issues, and very complex ones. Many of the jobs taken on by immigrants are somehow 'beneath' so many of our youngsters and looked upon with disdain. And at the same times some uk bosses do try to employ immigrants at very low rates, which they have no choice but to accept- and here goes the vicious circle.

Again, as so many subjects discussed here- we go from the sublime to the ridiculous, left to right- and nothing common-sensical in the 'middle'.

BAnanas

As usual I have read your post and find myself agreeing with your comment whole heartedly. I am surprised to find myself agreeing with Polly Toynbee but it won't be the first time nor hopefully the last.

I will say once again, I fail to see what anecdotal references to years ago have to do with the issues we are living with today and the sustainability of the UK for both indigenous or immigrant population.

It is thinking outside the box that is required. It was said on the t.v yesterday, I admit I can't remember who said it but it was a BBC reporter Angela Merkel had returned from her Xmas holiday early as the German politicians are debating immigration issues. Whilst that is not a fact I can refer you to I would mention that immigration and the 'free movement' espoused by the EU are causing concern for other countries too. Golden Dawn etc., are making for headline news at our peril. Why, because of the liberal attitude that dominates and puts off debate and has it's head in the sand.

I am not a racist, I am not a non giver, I am not aloof from having personal contact with immigrants. I am a realist, I am concerned for the future of us all and I am a mother and grandmother who sees the future for my children being somewhat less than I had hoped for them.

I believe the poor governance of this country and the idealism that 'The Melting Pot' will never boil over could be in for a shock and I that scares me. I wonder how the rise of the nationalist parties will manifest themselves come the next European Election. I hope I am so utterly wrong and will be made to look a fool but I suspect they might do better than expected.

I hear what you are saying POGS. But what on earth do we do with the fairly large British youngsters who are almost un-employable nowadays, for umpteen reasons? If they do not want to, or are unable to- take on less than enjoyable or lower paid jobs which do not require qualifications- or the other jobs that do require such, that the youngsters do not have (and quite frankly may not be able to have, for so many reasons)?

Can we really blame the immigrants for the above facts?

Agreed POGS like you my concerns are for my children and grandchildren.

There is a far right nationalist party in I think in the Czech Republic who would like the Roma repatriated to India. About as ridiculous as us saying to anyone with a name such as Anderson or Neilson surname "Get back to Scandinavia from whence you came some 1000 years ago, cos as your names would suggest you don't belong here" We climb into bed with these people and their bizarre Hitleresque ideologies when we agreed to be part of the unwieldy EU and all that it encompasses. When I say "we" I don't mean all of us here in the UK, cos I think most of us just wanted a "common market" not a fiscal and political union.

I believe a fair number of Germans are also not happy with the free movement of people from the poorer parts of the EU.

I would reiterate your sentiments POGS I have friends from many ethnic groups, my close West Indian friend is a very fierce critic of the monumental tide of immigration from Europe for reasons I outlined in my previous post does that make her a racist? I believe there are tensions in Sheffield between the established Asian community and the recently arrived Romas, does that make the former racists? If so, what a tangled web we weave.

There are many parts of the country where there is, fortunately, no gang culture and very many multi-racial state and private schools where children from a range of backgrounds do well. The issues around the white working class males are complex. Schools in England are required to identify "vulnerable groups' in relation to their achievement and progress in schools. Often the kids doing least well are the white working class boys. This is of course the group that have suffered most in terms of loss of employment that white working class men traditionally found - manual, unskilled, craft etc Other sectors have expanded while these have contracted sharply. Blaming schools or immigrants is certainly not helpful.

ninny just because something is in a newspaper - any newspaper - doesn't mean it is necessarily true, does it? As I have said before, all branches of our media are experts at manipulating their readers for the sake of circulation. None can be trusted.

A general comment now. Concern for the future of our children and grandchildren is understandable and commendable. Blaming recent arrivals in this country, and castigating or sanctifying them is not. It all, employment, immigration, benefits etc. remains the fault of ANY recent or current government and its policies, for whichever one we voted.

All these anecdotes make interesting reading but add little actual information, merely feeding whatever fire they are fuelling.

Many unskilled jobs have been advertised exclusively in Eastern Europe, how does this help our "white or for that matter black working class" Similarly there have been occasions where jobs in this country have not been available to the local British people in the area they have been advertised. I don't blame immigrants if they see a way to improve their lives elsewhere, my grandfather was an immigrant he did that very thing.

Whilst we have social problems in this country, we have not lived under some of the harsh regimes that our Eastern European neighbours have and yet we are told their standards of literacy, numeracy not to mention their worth ethic are superior to ours, which I don't doubt. I don't know the budget allocated for education in these countries but I have a feeling it would be less than ours, although of course they don't bother to educate their Roma citizens properly because evidently it seems OK for them not to treat them as their equals.

I do blame schools when pupils leave illiterate and not able to express themselves in their mother tongue and seemingly so does David Lammy.

I would reiterate again I believe that have a greater duty to our own young people by getting them into employment and do not leave them languishing without any future before we consider the interests of the rest of Europe

Things are not anything like so simple as some of these posts suggest. It is not a question of lazy young Brits not being willing to work at uncongenial jobs versus determined young immigrants prepared to put their backs into it to make their lives better. It is also to do with how easy it is for the unscrupulous to exploit immigrants to make a bigger profit. Remember the Chinese cockle pickers in Morecombe.

The conduit of all evil "Daily Mail" did an article yesterday about the very subject of unscrupulous gang masters, but as we all know that scurrilous rag only print lies and more damn lies! However a far more reliable source Polly Toynbee in the Guardian has also said that immigrants are exploited in this way, so perhaps we can believe her account. She also said that it was highly unlikely that any British person would put up with the squalid conditions the exploited Eastern Europeans live under. That's the British for you, bunch of woose! how we ever got through two world wars God only knows.

As I said, no media source can be believed or trusted.

These gangs do exists- and do exploit immigrants in a dreadful way. Even worse (perhaps?) is that it is usually a few very rich immigrants exploiting the vulnerable who just can't say no. So I agree that huge efforts should be made to stop this- and ensure that the minimal wage and living conditions are adhered to. But then of course, we must also accept the higher prices.

The issues are hugely complex and all interlinked- and anyone who comes up with an 'easy off the peg' solution is either a liar or totally deluded.

Did Polly Toynbee speak out about immigrants being exploited during the leadership of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown? It was well known about gang masters then and if she did I will happily stand corrected. I find it interesting The Guardian and the Labour party are only now it seems realising people are coming here to work very long hours on well below the minimum wage. I don't rate any political party highly at the moment but I do find it especially exasperating the Labour party stifled any debate on immigration.

During the Blair era the Guardian published a lengthy report on the poor treatment meted out to EE immigrant workers by British employers.

Refusal to allow toilet breaks, resulting in menstrual blood trickling down legs, frozen burgers being thrown by supervisors at workers are two examples which come to mind.

The workers spoke little English and were afraid to complain in case they lost their jobs.

www.hmrc.gov.uk/childbenefit/start/who-qualifies/new-arrivals-uk.htm#8If you've come to the UK but your child has stayed behind

There are different arrangements for Child Benefit depending on whether you are working and if you're a national of a European Economic Area (EEA) country or not. Whatever your situation, you won't qualify unless you're responsible for your child.

If however you are a national of an EEA country or Switzerland, you may be able to get Child Benefit even if your child doesn't come to the UK. But your child will need to be living in an EEA country or Switzerland.

Just because I read the Daily Mail online (and The Telegraph!) does not mean I am of inferior intelligence.

petallus well it must have been true if it was in the Guardian!