Are you ready to welcome the apparent flood of bulgarians and romanians....

POGS Very good posts.

Absent it might be 'brouhaha' to some people but to others it is a serious problem. To consider the issue as a 'fuss' simply makes me wonder exactly to what extent the problem will ever be given credence by some actually.

I do not care whether an immigrant is from Bulgaria, Somalia, Iraq or an eastern/western/north/south part of Europe. It is not racist to say there is a problem and the subject must be debated. For heavens sake there are many immigrants who themselves believe it is getting out of hand. Gordon Brown called a woman a bigot for daring to say such a thing and quite rightly the man made her an apology. It is racist only to those who want to make it so. Although I do agree that there is no place for the likes of the BNP.

The problem is one of sustainability whether it is in housing, schooling, NHS, employment etc. As I said before, if you do not live in an area that has any of these issues then it is difficult to comprehend just how much there is concern from those who see exactly how it is effecting their lives. It is happening now and no amount of hiding it under the bed will make it go away.

If people see it as racism then I am sorry about that. Personally I think the likes of the BNP arise because of fear also. Fear that is happening to people who cannot get social housing, get employment, wait for a doctors appointment, see their children in over crowded schools etc. All of these problems arise because of the sheer number of people trying to use them. It is a square peg in a round hole scenario.

For the sake of all who live in the UK, whether they be British born and bred or immigrants who live and work here, it is not rational to continue knowing the system is a busted flush that can only get worse. We are not the only country facing problems for heavens sake and the rise of the Nationalist Parties would not be happening if sensible immigration policies had been put in place in the first place.

POGS It is naive to believe that all this brouhaha would still be going on if the putative thousands of immigrants weren't Eastern Europeans. A nasty undercurrent of what is tantamount to racism underlies many of the comments made in the media and this, of course, makes the hackles rise on those of us with family connections to immigrants.

I think it is important to recognise the potential issues of sudden immigration both for the sake of the migrant and the populous of the host country. However it is best done in a climate of factual knowledge rather than hysterical hostility as whipped up by certain factions in politics, the media & including forums.
Recent UK governments have been notable for their use of 'sledgehammer' policies to crack relatively small problems. I think it would be wise for EEC countries to seriously work on how to minimise negative the impact on countries losing key workers and also on countries receiving migrants rather than making knee-jerk policies that do not work but simply offer a sop to the electorate.

Not to mention encouraging schools to manage themselves without leaning on the LA. Except when the secretary of state wants to lay down the law, or just his whims.
In my brush with planning earlier this year (helping to save MK market) it seems that if you can mobilise local opinion you can influence decisions - and that there are often conflicting pressures that planners are trying to juggle. Then the govt throws another one into the mix e.g the Portas report.

Jessnorthumberland-consult.limehouse.co.uk/portal/planning/core_strategy/cspo2?pointId=s1381136848757#target-d1108061e3520

This is the part of Northumberland County Council's core strategy document which relates to Green Belt Policy.
It does sound fine and good when you read it, but the proposed development that I mentioned was in the existing Green Belt and the Council Officers made it clear that although they wanted to avoid encroaching on the Green Belt, what was paramount was the Government's requirements for new housing and development.This is the relevant section:

"8.14 The work undertaken to identify the preferred level of economic and housing development required has identified that the following Main Towns and Service Centres that do not currently have suitable development land available: Hexham, Prudhoe, and Ponteland. They will require land to be deleted from the Green Belt in order to deliver the overarching strategy of the Plan."

In the event, the Council refused the planning permission, but the local feeling is that the fight is far from over and it's only a matter of time before this decision is overturned.

I think there is always this tension between national policy and local autonomy - it's a case of you can do as you wish, as long as it's what we tell you.
It was the same in the NHS with the PCTs- these were supposed to deliver local services for local people, but in fact they were subject to the diktats of the Department of Health.

I thought the coverage on the Today programme was really quite balanced. They seemed to be calming rather than whipping up angst.

POGS , A very good post !

He did say how that was calculated Nelliemoser, on the Today programme, but I'm blowed if I can remember what it was.

This is such an emotive subject and your response to the question in my opinion depends a lot on where you live . We have been told first hand on this thread what an impact immigration can have on a community. Now if you have experience of seeing the problems yourself you naturally agree. If you don't accept what you are being told that becomes the heart of the issue, I can only surmise you have no experience of the problems first hand and live in an area of the country, as yet, not particularly affected.

The fact we are discussing the possible influx from two countries is really the tip of the icberg. It is immigration from any country that requires serious debate.

I am acutely aware that some G.N's have an immigrant heritage but I fail to see what that has to do with debating the numbers if immigrants that are sustainable for us in 2014. Beer was 2 pence a pint once and a loaf of bread a ha'penny but that has no relevance to today's living standards.

As for anybody who suggests they are immigrants or living overseas I also don't think that has a relevance either. Which G.N has emigrated without applying for permission from their chosen country of abode. Which G.N obtained permission to become a resident and did not fit the terms of residency without a job, sound personal finances, etc. No you do not 'get into' countries such as Australia, New Zealand etc.and receive benefits, free housing and health care just because you are in the country.

There is I grant you a reciprocal arrangement within the EU countries but I bet not one G.N is or possibly knows many British claiming benefits the same as we have here.

Benefits, the NHS, schooling, housing are not free. They are paid for by us and our children and they are trying to keep their heads above water on a daily basis. This is not a child's nursery rhyme called The Old Woman who lived in a shoe. Immigration must be looked at, especially the services provided by taking taxes.

I am totally aware that we rely on hard working immigrants for a lot of services. I am totally aware they pay taxes. I am also aware that we have massive unemployment, we have immigrants not paying taxes on the jobs black market scam. I am aware money is being sent 'home' and not being recycled in our country.

I wonder what would happen if a government closed down businesses who employ illegal immigrants or paid under the minimum wage. I wonder if all the disgusting 'shed's' and accommodations which house poor souls were stopped being used. I wonder if we started to the same as other countries and made Health Insurance a requirement before entering the country. I wonder I wonder I wonder . That's all I will ever do because the problem is quite possibly so out of hand the EU Gravy Train and our government of whatever colour have dug the hole so big they can't dig their way out of it.

Having had the radio on all day I noted that "Mr Whover from Immigration Watch had remarked that there COULD BE 55 thousand people coming into Britain."
There was no information on how these figures were calculated.

By the time this reached BBC Radio 4 news at lunch time it was presented as "Mr Whoever said there WOULD BE 55 thousand people coming into Britain. "
One very significant word, changed Chinese whispers style, had delivered a very different scenario.

I seem to remember that when the Countryside Alliance were objecting to banning fox hunting as it was they were suggesting that 40 thousand jobs might be lost in the rural economy if this ban went ahead.

I do wonder where these campaigners dream up these figures from. It just makes me very distrustful of any such unsubstantiated claims.

jane do you have a link re the planning and green belt. The current lot have dithered around so much I have lost track. Before they came in the Tories were on the rooftops shouting "localism" and saying that nothing would get built anywhere without a local vote (wasn't it something like 70% in favour ?) Then once they were in power they must have realised that nothing would ever get built anywhere if they followed that rule.
And of course Secretary of State takes the final decision on major infrastructure proposals of national importance (in the "localism" bill). This means that local objections to HS2 and power stations can be overridden.
The localism bill itself (thank you Eric Pickles) is a hodge podge of measures.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/localism.html

Hear, hear MiceElf. I'm heartily sick of the gutter press and their tactics to incite anti-immigration. We all express shock at the way black immigrants were treated in the 50s, but this is no better. To read today that there is a story of Romanians defecating on doorsteps is the bloody limit. There were plenty of Europeans flooding into New York to make a better life for themselves at the beginning of the last century and a couple of decades before and we called them pioneers, brave people wanting to make a good life for their children. Just how uncharitable are we British prepared to be? The majority of Eastern Europeans who do want to travel to find employment don't pick here as their first choice, either. No wonder!

It's about time the BBC encouraged all migrants to join a Trade Union and become part if the struggle of underpaid and exploited people who work together to improve conditions for everyone instead of whipping up fear and hatred a la tabloid press.

I agree River. I remarked to DH yesterday that I thought the BBC were whipping up anti-immigration fervour.
Jess I accept what you say about London, but the Government does have a policy of building on green belt and relaxing planning controls. Councils have been given targets to build homes by 2025 and they have to show how they are going to do this. I think this is less to do with immigrants and more to do with young people who are unable to find homes. However whether they are going about it in the right way is open to question.
I realise that what happens in Northumberland will be of no interest to anyone, but I recently attended a local meeting about a proposed development near where I live. When the council officers were asked about the Green Belt where the development was proposed, we were told that to comply with Government targets of 22,000 new dwellings in Northumberland the only option was the euphemistically titled 'green belt deletion'.
So it is happening.
It would not be so bad if Northumberland actually needed 22,000 new homes, but it doesn't. The population is shrinking, and as Phoenix said, unless there are jobs, what is the point of building new houses?

I'm getting really fed up with them banging on about it too riverwalk - top news item.

Have to say that I'm very surprised at the BBC's alarmist coverage over the past few days, and on the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning it sounded a bit like 'The War of the Worlds' radio drama!

Yes, I like London. In fairly small doses.

I don't live in London! I go there very occasionally.

The small spaces I would like to see preserved are not protected by the green belt. Just appreciated by local people. And they are disappearing.

To be honest, I'm not too bothered about the benefits thing. It's just where everyone is going to go!

Yes jingle you are blaming immigrants, consistently, for the mythical "overcrowding" that, according to you, afflicts the UK. I seem to remember you live in London which is ringed by a tightly controlled "green belt" so I don't get where all this gobbling up of the countryside is taking place anywhere near you - or has the Queen got outline planning permission to build on Richmond Park?
I think you have a London-centric view on "overcrowding".
If there were no "immigrants" then the whole of London would grind to a halt. Transport, hospitals, hotels and all the office blocks that would remain un-cleaned. Not to mention the many empty desks in the City and across the capital.
The fact is that immigrants have enabled London to become the vibrant world capital it is today. It is a good thing that it is concentrated into a limited area - rather than sprawling in an uncontrolled way like many other cities around the world.

In Bristol, we have a very large Somali community many of whom claim benefits. We also have a large English community, many of whom are on benefits.

I don't actually blame migrants for the tube!

This thread has taken a turn for the ridiculous now.

What - about the young Asian fellers? There are some lovely white ones as well.

Not racist. I'd give you lecherous though.

Jingle, that comment is deeply unpleasant and really quite racist.

As for the tube, yes, I have, but I blame successive governments for underinvestment, not migrants.