In praise of Iain Duncan Smith's Welfare Reforms

You're right, POGS. Unfortunately, it has killed a perfectly reasonable debate stone dead.

Ivanhoe has posted in the past. No reason for the thread to be killed stone dead!

Oh, never heard of him/her.

Just ignore?

I couldn't possibly say...

Ana, sleep tight

Totally Papaoscar: IDS - a failed politician, the "quiet man" who got 'handed a pup' with welfare reform! Who else has got so much to prove? Almost laughable to see him struggling to string a couple of coherent sentences together. As usual with politicians, it is a sledgehammer to a nut - an attempt to appease the " I have a woman that does " brigade - most of whom have no clue about the reality of living on the breadline and make patronising comments about those that are trying very hard to just survive. Not skivers or alcoholics but decent people who try hard but didn't 'marry well' or have a supportive family to push them. I also include people like myself who are carers and who are treated like saps for actually choosing to care for a relative rather than handing that care to a stranger - sorry but I think I am done with this site!! Over and out!!

Oh, one last thing - playground bullying tactics (which I am sure all us smug, clever, cliqey gransnetters abhor) have just been used in a rather pathetic way against Ivanhoe, who is perfectly entitled to air his or her opinions - but to patronise and insult someone with a different viewpoint? That is truly pathetic. Been fun but no more - TTFN!

Overkill, Waltermitty!

Ivanhoe posted a rant, then said he/she was being objective (his own claim).

A couple of people commented (quite mildly, no ranting) on how they did not think it was objective. no insults there!

He responded that there was a lot of political ignorance on here, quoting the use of "labour" instead of "new labour" as an example.

Someone thought that insulting and dismissive of our right to an opinion.

Then you came in like the wrath of God to chastise us.

Waltermitty

If you are calling me a bully then so be it. I have to respect your right to say it or else I would be a hypocrite.

What I will say to you is this.

When a poster only has 'diatribe' other posters can hardly give a reasoned response because it just becomes a slanging match. That possibly is the desired hope of the poster but it is better to make a comment that does not ignore the poster but doesn't get yourself into a vacuous conversation.

If all you have is a statement to make then how can others engage in dialogue with you. I think it is a shame when this happens as I honestly believe a lot of posters simply 'switch off'.

We all have a right to support whichever political party we want to. We all have a right to say what we think. We don't have the right to insult anybody who does not conform to our way of thinking but sadly is does happen and I don't think it unreasonable for there to be a response, maybe you do.

waltermitty, Well said.

waltermitty, The Tory's are using the deficit as a cover to reduce the State and get rid of welfare.

That's it in a nut shell.

Britain has the most under funded welfare State system compared to Europe. We dont need welfare reform, we need council houses, and long term secure jobs with a decent minimum wage.

Well said, Ivanhoe. We also need a limit on top pay, instead of fantasy amounts.

Elegran, Britain hasnt had a "Labour" Government since the 1970's. "New" Labour under Tony Blair 1997-2010 embraced Thatcher's right wing deregulated free market. So New Labour cannot be called "Labour"!

So what you really want is to get back Ramsay MacDonald, Clem Attlee or Harold Wilson? Sorry to disappoint you, but they are as dead as Margaret Thatcher. You will have to abandon (New) Labour and hope for a Communist revival.

Elegran, Labour needs to go back to its core values to regain its lost supporters.

No it doesn't, Labour knew it had to change, hence New Labour.

I've posted on another thread so I can't be bothered at the minute to scribe another reason why I think this way.

Miliband is saying his party is 'bringing back' socialism. Well good luck mate but those of us of a certain age will either be thinking good, or Oh bloody hell, dependant upon our views.

Agreed. Labour is no longer about the "working man". In that, it has, in a way, come of age from the idealism with which it started. What happens to the "working man" depends so much on what happens to the firm he works for, or the people who use his services directly, if he is a one-man business or part of a small business. So much is just out of the hands of legislation and exposed to market forces.

So many companies are now multi-national, with shareholders who look to the interest from their shares to top up their own income. In that they are not automatically to be thought of as fat cats as there are vast numbers of pwople with their modest savings in shares, either independently or as part of a savings scheme. There is no going back on that, the genie is out of the bottle and these companies will not go away, any more than the way we can travel all round the world and spend our money in different countries will go away.

Politicians who cannot get their heads round international trading and financing cannot do their best for the people they serve. None of the parties today can claim to have statesmen of the quality they once had.

POGS, Labour isnt Labour unless it standing up for the poor, the weak, the old, the ill, the disabled, the vulnerable, and this could be anyone of us at any time.

But while standing up for them, they also need to act in the outside world, and see the wider picture in which everyone is living, as well as the poor, the weak, the old, the ill, the disabled, the vulnerable.

If they don't, they could spend more on them those who are not all these things can contribute to the national piggy bank. The result of that could be that they ADD to the numbers of the poor and those who cannot find work or maintain themselves.

Elegran, The Labour party was founded to sticks up for the exploited masses of working class people. What's your problem with that ?

But you say there has been no Labour Party for 30 years, I think that's what you said in another post?

I think you are wrong in thinking only Labour stand up for the poor, the old, the disabled, the vulnerable. That comment may have been true moons ago but this is a different era.

What do you think when you hear Labour say 'They are going to be tougher on Welfare' than the Tories? That's been said by Balls, Miliband, Umuna and Rachael Reeves.

What do you think when Andy Burnham and Balls said Labour would not do as the Tories have done and Ring Fence NHS spending.

What do you think about employment being higher under Labour.

My father was happy with his 15 minute 'slots' mixed in with 2 1 hour 'slots' of home visit's. They were not started under the Tories Labour were in office.

I am trying to say Ivanhoe that sometimes the rhetoric that comes from ANY political party is nothing more than fluff and air. I, believe it or not, did vote Labour once. I then voted Tory and went back to Labour under Blair. I am now voting Tory again.

I am not a sadistic b-----d as some GN's think because that's how I vote. I watch, listen and make a decision on who I think is best for the 'country' at any one given time. I am not of a mind set that I vote out of hatred, loathing or fear.

POGS, I am well aware that the Labour party now is right wing, no doubt about it, Ed M. is courting the middle class vote, just like Blair did.

Tell me why you are voting right wing Tory in 2015 ?

I think she has explained that already, Ivanhoe.

Do tell us who you are voting for, Ivanhoe, I am still puzzled!

Because Labour are continually showing me they have a mind set that belongs to the past.

I detest class warfare and that is endemic with practically every policy or comment Labour make.

I don't like the Unions gaining the upper hand once more.

I hate hypocrisy and Labour have the edge on that score.

I think the Labour Ministers are appalling at understanding how finances and business operate.

If Miliband does bring back more socialism it will be a retrograde step for the country.

I think Labour will tax and spend and I think that is wrong.
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I think the Tories are have better business acumen.

I think the Tories are not so hung up on class divide.

In my region there is a lot of good, sound business developments being started with government funding.

Manufacturing is starting to look up.

I just see a more intelligent outlook for the future under the Tories.

I might change my mind before the election but that's what I think thus far.

Yes, Ivanhoe, who would you suggest we vote for, as you seem to despise the Tories and New Labour equally? Surely not the LibDems!