In praise of Iain Duncan Smith's Welfare Reforms

Gosh now Ana is cross with me!

I did not think I was lecturing..just answering your assertions and stating my, different, opinion.

I only quoted a real life example to illustrate that ordinary people, like you and me, can find themselves in a bad place and need to claim benefits. It is hard enough to be in that situation without feeling that you may be considered one of the 'scoungers' and it just adds to a sense of shame that people already feel. Empathy is all I am suggesting.

durhamjen - I don't think people will give up flying so at least he's trying to make a difference and, as he says, it has to be someone with enough clout to make it happen.

I have heard about that form of heating before (from waste) and I can't understand why it isn't used more. It comes back again, imo, to supporting big business in order to bring in more taxation from consumers; such a shame they don't feel the same way about all taxation ...

Aka, I think it's perfectly acceptable to state that in your opinion a comment is sarcastic.

It's another matter to say that another person is 'a sarcastic piece of work'. By all means debate an issue robustly and forcefully - even stridently, but when that debate degenerates into personal comments, any point of view is likely to be dismissed

Well, I'm afraid that's what I find rather irritating, Penstemmon - the assumption that anyone who dares to question the benefits system is lacking in empathy and/or compassion. I'm not sure which assertions of mine you were addressing, either...

I, too, know of people on benefits through no fault of their own. My own DD claims child tax credit because although she works full-time, the pay is low. As I said before, no one is saying that everyone claiming benefits is a scrounging layabout, but we all know some who are!

"Gosh, yes, that makes benefit fraud hardly worth bothering about, doesn't it?"
Would you call this comment by Ana sarcastic, Aka? It was aimed at me, but I do not care. I can take it.
Why do you assume that people who cannot fill forms in are doing it deliberately to defraud the system, which is what you are implying even whilst trying to deny it?
I had a fifty+ page form to fill in to decide whether we could get my husband's disability living allowance. We ended up getting someone from Ageuk, a retired lawyer, to help us get what we were entitled to because we were not sure, and we both have degrees. Filling in forms to get benefit is not like filling in forms to get a job. And I have helped people do that too, as a teacher of special needs in adult education at one time. I would hate to do it now.
I have been hounded by HMRC to get tax I did not owe. I would suggest you look at employment statistics to see how many jobs there are available, and how the government twists the statistics, but I know you would not, just as you will not watch the programmes about people being turned out of their family homes, because they might not confirm your prejudices.

That was irony, not sarcasm, durhamjen

Holly, have you looked at www.fairtaxmark.net and www.taxresearch.org.uk ? There are people trying to get organisations to pay their tax, and Tax Research is listened to by many financial institutions, thank gooodness. He gets people who tell him he's talking rubbish, too. But he's better at arguing than I am.

Ana it was your post 16:22 I was responding to.

I too question the benefit system. I dislike fraudulent claims and, as I have explained, I include those who deliberately avoid seeking work. It damages the majority of benefit claimants. So I think we agree on that!

Where we disagree, as I see it, involves the language used in debating the issue and the accuracy of statements being made. You believe the number of inappropriate payments is larger than I understand it to be. I believe repeated use of pejorative terms (e.g.'scroungers') can impact negatively on genuine claimants. That is why I call for empathy..not to stifle debate but to avoid hurting people.

Really, Ana. Difficult to tell how it's meant on the page. What makes it ironic and not sarcastic? Actually, Ana, I do not know anyone who is a scrounging layabout. I know my sister is waiting for her second hip operation and after that, she will have to go on a course to prove she is not a scrounging layabout. When the course is finished she will be old enough to get her state pension.
Her son has been on countless couses and never been given the job he was promised at the end of the course. He's just been told, thank you, goodbye, and then someone else has been taken on to do the same course. He has to live on £78 per week, and if he does not turn up at the jobcentre on time because he had to walk as he could not afford the busfare, he has his money sanctioned. Fortunately his father is in work and he can go and live with his parents until he gets more money. He does not want to live like that. He's 38, and still has to ask his parents to subsidise him. This is because he lives in Hull. He's been to London and Leeds looking for work and always returned to Hull because he cannot afford to live anywhere else. There are more unemployed than jobs in Hull.

'You believe the number of inappropriate payments is larger than I understand it to be.' What have I said which supports that assertion, Penstemmon?

I don't see how comparing tax evasion etc. with fraudulent benefit claims is helpful, but it's a theme trotted out time and time again in discussions such as these.

I'm sure we could all give examples of situations where the benefits system is certainly not working properly, as both you and durhamjen have done, but most of us could also give examples of claimants who are cheating the system, sometimes quite blatantly.

Ana I suppose it was because you implied you did not agree with the link jen posted. It made me think that you feel there are more false claimants than I do.

Happy to find more common ground if you do think false /inappropriate claims are fewer than genuine claims we can agree!

Ana, you said "we all know some who are (scrounging layabouts)."
I have just told you that I do not, but now you are still criticising me for saying I do not know anyone who is. At least you have changed it to "most of us" instead of "we all" although not admitting that you have altered your stance.
The problem is that you are blind to the fact that tax fraud is the other end of the spectrum to benefit fraud. If everyone who owed tax paid it, there would be no need for the austerity that we are in. We would also have a better resourced NHS, etc.

Yes, of course I agree that the vast majority of benefits claims are genuine and deserved.

I do think, however, that the percentage of fraudulent claims always quoted does not take into account those claimants who know their way round the system and have no intention of working, as Aka said.

It's quite probable that we won't agree on that point, but I'm happy to leave it a that!

durhamjen, I'm not even going to bother replying to your rather offensive post.

Ha! My post has been deleted. Apparently calling someone a 'piece of work' is an insult similar to calling them an ass. I didn't know this and of course if I had I would never have called Jen an ass.

Sorry, what's offensive about it? I do not understand.
You said yourself that you do not see why we should talk about tax fraud in the same debate as benefit fraud. I am just pointing out why we should.
I notice you are fond of blaming Gordon Brown for everything. Do you think he should not have bailed out the banks after the worldwide financial crisis? Gordon Brown did not give tax cuts to millionaires. He gave more money to people on benefits because he knows they will spend the money in this country, not salt it away in tax havens. This government is making sure that the poor stay poor. Aren't you ashamed of the number of people who have to go to food banks in order to feed their families?

Jen I know plenty of these (scrounging layabouts) and so do most of us. But I now realise that if this is the case and you have never come across these (scrounging layabouts) then it explain your delightfully innocent defence of theses (scrounging layabouts)

'Fond of blaming Gordon Brown for everything'! Everything!?? A lot of my 'Gordon Brown blaming' is tongue in cheek, but you don't really seem to have much of a sense of humour where politics are concerned, durhamjen.

Do stop telling us off. Not everyone agrees with your point of view. Get over it.

I thought you had gone. You said it had deteriorated, but you think it's okay to come back and call me an ass. My brother used to insult me that way, a Jenny being another name for an ass, so I am inured to the insult.

I am pleased to be delightfully innocent, looking at the alternative.
You are doing it as well, speaking for others. "so do most of us". How do you know? Give us numbers. I know plenty is a meaningless phrase.

Jen I am not calling you that. I said I had no idea it was more than a turn of phrase. Obviously all those who reported the post knew otherwise. I had never made any connection between Jenny and ass until you pointed it out...it simply didn't occur to me.

But I do have to point out that it was you who sad Ana ought to have said 'most of us' wasn't it? I'm now totally confused.

Incidentally I came back when I was informed my post had been deleted. So here I am, with your permission of course

AKA

Absolutely ridiculous! I can't believe anyone would have made such a connection. Unless they had reason to, of course.

Personally, I see myself as a spinning Jenny

Some of us think IDS is doing a good job, some of us don't.
Can we debate it like grownups?
I am only posting this after two glasses of so I would normally avoid this forum now.

There are faults on all sides - greed and tax evasion on the one side, benefit fraud and scroungers on the other. Both are wrong, both should be put right. Then we will all be better off. Is there anyone in the Government who can tackle this?
I am paying tax on my miniscule pension and would prefer not to.
But if it is for the good of people who need it, I will do so willingly. If it is to line the pockets of those who want it, not need it, then I am not so happy.

And I think food banks are needed but are also a policitical statement.
I do know someone who helps to run one, rather than just what the tv and media tells me about them.

Well said, rosequartz.