In praise of Iain Duncan Smith's Welfare Reforms

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..but where do you get your figures from Aka.Whether you agree with Jen or not, she does her homework.

"I know he was talking about a different situation but I utterly condemn those who take from the system with no intention of ever trying to get work, and don't pretend they don't exist or are in a minority."

I think this deserves a sarcastic response, Aka.
Where did you get the information from that they are not in a minority?
Most of my information, as you have probably realised by now, comes from The Guardian, The Joseph Rowntree Foundation, www.fullfacts.org, Open Democracy, www.politics.co.uk, www.weownit.org.uk, and the parliament website. One thing I do not do is make sweeping statements that I cannot justify.
Somehow I do not think Ghandi would be on your side.

Aka I am not pretending they are in a minority because of all the people in receipt of benefit those receiving money as a result of making false claims ARE in the minority!

Apologies to anyone reading this. I misspelt Gandhi. How could I?
Aka, the Daily Worker does not exist. It's been the Morning Star for as long as I've been aware of it.

https://fullfact.org/economy/tax_evasion_avoidance_uncollected_swiss_agreement-31424

This puts benefit fraud into perspective. Ignore whether Labour are right or wrong, just look at the amounts uncollected.

Gosh, yes, that makes benefit fraud hardly worth bothering about, doesn't it?

Yes, it means that there would be no need to hound people out of their homes if HMRC did the job properly.
I find it a bit worrying today that Cameron has now decided to go all religious, and say that people like him have the moral high ground, yet at the same time ignore what the bishops and archbishops are saying about food banks and homelessness.

There would still be a need to cut the benefits bill - you can't just go on handing out more and more money to people a la Gordon Brown.

I bow to your superiour knowledge of the extreme left wing press jen and of course your superior ability to decide what deserves a sarcastic reply. I gather Grannylin us quite happy to support you in what is termed 'the lowest form of wit' ??? And of course you speak for Ghandi Gandhi too!

Penstemmon you are NOT a stupid woman, I know but I did not mention anyone making FALSE CLAIMS. Stop putting words into my mouth.

durhamjen - the news programme was on Channel 4 and BA boss Willie Walsh was being interviewed about his ideas for bio-fuels and it was Mr Walsh who stated that none of the green tax money has been spent on investment; he didn't elaborate any further. The video link is here and his comment is at around 1:50

www.channel4.com/news/five-big-ideas-that-could-change-the-future-of-air-travel

It will be interesting to see if the Government backs this scheme or if it protects the Big 6 and declines to invest.

HMRC only seem able to hound little people including the retired for tax which they seem to think they owe (but often do not).

They need a huge shake-up.

Ana I do not think anyone has said that fraudulent claimants should not be pursued.
What many people dislike is the implication that most benefit claimants are fraudulent and by association damn all claimants.

There are already laws and systems in place to pursue fraudsters. If these were implemented effectively and efficiently that would leave those in genuine need of help feeling less demonised by strident anti-benefit voices.

My experience of benefit claimants is limited but current. A person who through illness, lost their business and savings. Their marriage broke down and they are unwell, penniless & homeless. Now living with a family member this means a 'housing benefit' element is not available. They receive about £78 pw in 'incapacity' benefit. Bear in mind they have paid tax/NI for 40 odd years as a 'professional'. It costs approx £20 in fares to visit children each week plus an additional £20 round trip to get to medical specialist. Personal items(toothpaste/shampoo/haircut etc) & new shoes etc. cost too. It is good for them to meet up with friends occasionally but that costs a further £20+ in travel..then a cup of coffee etc when out. Phone costs..to keep in touch with child and friends. All accommodation/ food/ laundry etc is provided by family member but if they were on their own £78 does not go far.

By 'little people' I mean hardworking families, the retired etc. I do not personally think we are 'little people', but obviously some do.

Thanks for the lecture, Penstemmon. No one is saying that most benefit claims are fraudulent, and I'd say the most strident voices on this thread are the anti-Coalition lobby!

('those of the' etc...)

I've always felt that however much one might disagree with someone else, if an assertion is made, it should be supported by relevant trustworthy research. Accusing another person of sarcasm and being 'a piece of work' whatever that means, really says more about the writer than the person to whom it was directed.

As for Cameron suddenly deciding he's sort of religious, I rather agree with Campbell when he advised politicians not to 'do God'. His wishy washy speech has been thoroughly rubbished in many quarters, most effectively by Giles Fraser.

Will you stop banging on about fraudulent claims. It's not those that are draining the system (though they certainly mount up). I'm talking about those who are claiming legitimately (!!) but simply refuse to get a job.

Those who are sent for an interview and deliberately mess it up, or turn up late if at all. Those who are told to fill in application forms and deliberately mess them up (and yes, I used to get so many like this when I was looking to take staff on). Those who know how to 'legitimately' play the system. People who say 'why should I work when I get more on benefit?'

I'm not making this up. I've heard it and seen it time and time again.

No need to shout Aka
I would think that if you are not actively pursuing work and do not intend to then that is fraudulent. I am asserting that those claimants are a minority of claimants. Most benefits are claimed by the genuinely ill, disabled and the unemployed who are trying to find work and by low-paid workers.

I think we agree that there are probably not that many 'fraudulent' claims in relation to the budget as a whole.

However, I think there are people who do milk the system as a life-style choice and know exactly how to work the system. Some are receiving enormous amounts in housing benefit to live in houses that most of us can only dream of and demanding even more.

At the same time there are always stories of people who are struggling and unable to get enough in benefits on which to survive such as those mentioned by Penstemmon.

So what is going on?

It sounds like one rule for the benefits rich list and another for the poor.
Same as life in general.

MiceElf the person WAS being sarcastic. She even boasted that it was justified. I think you owe me an apology.

Yes, seen it. There is a bit of a dichotomy having someone in the aviation industry discussing green fuel. All he needs to do is tell people not to fly. There are two biofuel from waste facilities in County Durham now. I have always thought it a good idea, as it reduces landfill. In fact in the 70s we lived on an estate that had a district heating scheme where all the heat and hot water came from a waste burning plant. It was altered years ago so all the houses had their own boilers. I bet they wish they hadn't now. All the pipework has probably deteriorated.

Holly, that last comment was to you. There's a lot going on since I started typing it.

This is starting to get nasty. I'm not prepared to carry on a discussion which is fast disintegrating into personalities.

I agree with others that compared to tax evasion, the benefit fraud bill is a mere drop in the ocean. I hear the public in the UK voice time and again that they want the government to deal with tax evasion but it still goes on. I'm not sure if I've linked this on this site before so I will apologise now if I am repeating it:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/i-set-up-parasite-street-to-balance-the-benefits-debate-9067202.html

I do agree with the chap that wrote the article and is now campaigning against misinformation. I believe that the government prefers to set us against one another as it diverts attention from where they don't want it going (for obvious reasons).

The problem with the solution from IDS is that they are now throwing the baby out with bathwater and any developed country that doesn't feel deep shame that people have to rely on foodbanks has, imo, become amoral.